She Turned Over £1 Million in Her Second Year (Only 1 in 100 Female Founders Do This)

My guest today has spent over two decades in senior HR roles across the NHS, local government, and the private sector. She knows exactly how workplaces work and more importantly where they break down. She has built free ventures from that knowledge. Amy iHeart, welcome to Women Lead AI. So, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

The first thing I would love to know is um one of the products that you created is AI and me. I I love the name by the way. I think it's so uh it's so clever. Uh can you tell me who is the audience for it? And if I'm the manager, what is the the benefit that I get from using this tool?

>> I think there might have phases if it's successful. And I think actually the first um user is likely to be other HR people. >> Okay. >> Because actually HR is a wide field with lots of people in different you know different seniority, different expectations, different whether it's talent management or employee relations. So that's my first target audience.

Once you know if that is successful when that's successful then actually I think we can use that test material and actually extend it out and say okay now we can give it to managers and CEOs but I think in its initial phases I think HR people >> and what is what is the solution and why did you feel like there is nothing on the market right now that is good enough? Okay. So, um, large organizations have HR departments usually, but they're still varied in how much expertise they've got. Um, and it can get spread quite thin. Small organizations not going to be able to afford to have an HR person.

>> Um, there are HR consultants, but I mean, I charge 150 quid an hour as an HR consultant. If you're a relatively small business, that's expensive. There are cheaper people and more expensive people. So the question is there's an awful lot of people and standalone HR people just doing it on their own without a manager without support without a team. And so it is for those people.

I was head of HR in large government organizations. I had a team of 50. I had lots of resources. I had you know it's to help the people who haven't got all of that. But it isn't just AI because AI on its own is fabulous but it's a bit like an excitable Oxford graduate.

It doesn't have the life experience or the emotional intelligence. So I suppose it was it's trying to give that wrapping around that support to those people who are doing HR but haven't got the depth of experience themselves or the breadth of a team to report to. Um, and then we get that right and actually that's why it's easier to then take it to managers and CEOs because arguably then you don't need a HR person at all. >> If I'm the that Asia professional, what what is the benefit that I get from using it? How is it how is it helping me do my job?

So there are quite a few different HR forums where HR people will put questions often um anonymously and people like me will answer and they're the kind of questions that we'll answer. So, it's something like I've had a grievance from a member of staff who we're partway through a disciplinary process and they're complaining that there might be sex discrimination about whole process. How do I deal with that? >> There's fraud. There's an abuse allegation.

you know it is. So they're doing something they've probably done in some way but don't have the life experience or the experience to deal with the complexity. Now if you type uh for example if you type something like um the the CEO wants me to sack this person. How do I do it into an LLM straightforward now? It'll tell you how to dismiss someone and what the risks are.

What it doesn't do is what I would do which is say what happened what's the context how's everybody feeling you know how much you know what else is going on it doesn't because it just answers the question you've asked it which is >> how do you dismiss someone another example is if an employee comes into your office and says can I have my contract >> you give them their contract and you also say what's happened because people only ask for a contract act if something's already like they want to leave they're annoyed their boss is now so but if if for example you just stepped into an HR job as a standalone and you might have got experience but they're often it's like somebody who you know companies don't tend to employ someone who's going to cost a hundred grand and has got loads of experience they recruit someone so they get a question or an issue they've never come up across >> and they need a bit of help so it's those kind of complex employee relation questions where it's a mixture of experience, law, psychology, you know, um, and I can put in things also, for example, it's asking how are they? Um, >> because if >> Yeah. But but even from a, you know, so because sometimes the real question is what happened for the HR person on that day. So if they type in or you know they say the CEO has got angry with such and such you know what it's like oh you know did did did they have a bereavement yesterday because it's going to then probably have more to do with like it doesn't mean you don't have to deal with the employee relations issue but >> it will be influenced by the fact they had a bereavement yesterday >> and the ad you know and and you know AI >> can't do that on its own at the moment. Um, also when I looked at it, I think there was a calculation, and I'm wishing I'd remembered the figures, but I think it's something like they' calculated that they thought the cost of employee conflict at work was about2 billion pounds a year.

>> That's not a small amount of >> money because it's people and we all we know it, don't we? We we know from our own life experiences people either leave or they work less well or you know or or everybody's just talking about whatever is going on and not doing their job or they you know it has a massive impact on productivity. The difference between a thriving team with who are getting on and there's no employee relations and a team where you've got three grievances and you know >> Yeah. You know, it's funny you say that because I think that when it comes to that, it almost feels like sometimes when you go into a company and as soon as you step through a door, you can just feel that vibe or however you call it and there is a really large difference between a company where you can just feel that everyone supports each other and has their back and a company where, you know, it's just doom and gloom and um I don't know whether that's our like we as humans pick up other people's emotions or what it is but >> you can read a room you feel you feel it and it and it makes a difference right >> yeah of course because as a customer you know if they have their own thing going on then I'm less likely to want to get in the middle of that because it might impact my work then right >> exactly and it's so I mean I saw and I apologies because I can't remember who did this but I saw somebody put a poll on LinkedIn an HR person asking other HR people how much psychology training have you had >> and something like 60% had said none >> 30% said not enough and 10% said enough. So that's like 90% that don't feel they've got what they need.

>> And yet we're advising people on the most complex, most difficult >> issues of work. Now obviously there are different types of HR. So there's also recruitment, training and development but but still these still have large um psychological elements. So one of the things so I did some teaching at CIPD level 7 masters level to some um corporate organizations through um a university and it's the complexity of dealing with the sort of implications of all of it. So I would say so take a recruitment and selection process.

Most people think of it as this is a way we decide who we want to recruit. >> Mhm. >> But that's the selection bit. Recruitment is trying to get people to want it in the first place and it's actually building a two-way relationship because you want them to work with you and you you know you want it to build well but also like for more of a employee experience or you know UX if you're talking about people that never start. The aim of a really good recruitment and selection process is that every single person that engages, whether they just see an advert, whether they apply, whether they have an interview, whether they're on the panel internal, everybody leaves the process thinking, "Well, that was good.

I want to work there." M >> not where you have one person who gets the job but isn't quite sure they like the place anyway and potentially 500 people who think your company is awful, >> right? So, but that's a design issue, not like and that's not how people think. But putting my brain, does that make sense? in between an end user and an LLM allows me to kind of stream the right information if that makes sense and sort of get it to pull out.

So to me it feels like you're um borrowing the the aspect from from AI the fact that you can automate a lot of things and makes things faster and get access to questions faster but you're also borrowing the expertise of obviously your experience of having done HR human relations for the past 20 years and you're blending those. Would that be fair? Yeah. And that's kind of how I came up with it because it's um if you like if I say AI and me, it means AI and me. But if you say it out loud, it means you, doesn't it?

>> Right. It also happens to be, of course, a pun on my name. >> Yeah. >> Which just happens and my name is spelled oddly. So I was like, you're kind of because people have sometimes said, well, can't can't we how do you couldn't I just like train another one of you?

And I'm like, you could try, but I'm a bit weird. I mean, fundamentally, I'm actually a bit is an understatement of the century. I am very odd. I mean, I once I applied for an NHS fasttrack scheme when I was in my 20ies. They were looking to bring in different minds from outside of the NHS because it has a tendency to recruit at the beginning and just advance days in the NHS and they had a general management scheme and an HR scheme and the idea was to it was done by the NHS Institute for Innovation.

It was highly the these people were meant to become chief chief execs in the NHS. So they had 4,000 applicants for the HR scheme. There was a long complicated recruitment process um which ended up in three like lots of psychometric tests. There was a 3-day uh assessment center which ended with an interview by three NHS chief execs. >> So, we get to the end, I was 26, and they rang me up and they said, "Amy, we've got a problem.

" And I'm like, "That's a strange doctor conversation." I was like, "I thought you were going to tell me whether I've got this job or not." And they were like, "Well, you were the only person who passed. We wanted 30. We had 4,000 applicants and you're the only one who met the standard.

So, we don't know what to do because it would seem ridiculous to not take you because you're clearly exactly what we like. We spent a lot of time they in designing all of this." >> Yeah. >> And doing skills tests and intelligence tests on the rest of it. So they said, "Well, we're not going to do the program because there's no point, but we want you to still come, so we're just going to add you to the general management one.

" >> Which I was like, "Cool. That'd be great." And actually, it was a great group of people, and they gave us access to a level of a level of insight into the health service that very few people will ever see. It's all I would say. And they flew people in to train us.

It was, you know, it was >> I used that example to just say that I'm weird even in HR. Does that make sense? >> Right. So, it's like so it's it's it's how do I copy me? Now, some might argue, well, we don't want you.

Well, that's all valid, but you know, it's like this is this is the point. It's it's and also there's an element of saying I I mean I'm a curious optimistic person who likes all sorts of different things who thinks in systems and people um who wants to make the world like I want to make organizations good for everyone. I genuinely believe I don't think it's not I don't believe in zero sum games. I understand that's how economics is often argued but I don't accept that. I'm like you can create outcomes that are good for everyone.

So, people have said things like, "Well, why don't you do it quicker?" Or, "Why don't you, you know, you why won't someone else do it?" Or, and I've kind of said, "Well, >> if they do, so be it. This isn't like I'm doing this because I think there's a there's there's something there, but if somebody else gets there first, that's fabulous. That's and I might go and talk to them.

" Or if if someone else wants to do it a different way or because with innovation, you usually have more in common with the person doing the the other people doing the innovation than so it doesn't if it doesn't work that's okay. There's an idea of um it's uh psychology and psychologist called Dr. Carol Dwick called growth mindset where the idea is it's not about whether you win you know win or lose w fail or succeed it's about realizing you just keep going and it's you know that's that's the point and it's not so it's like this isn't yeah this is so this might not work does that make sense but it's like but the process is fun and >> but it's not just that I think you know I think I I've I've met a lot of people who for example their reason for let's say not starting a uh soap you know soap brand is oh but there are so many other people doing it or not starting a consultancy or something else and there's always it's very hard to find an idea where no one has ever done that thing it's almost impossible but you can differentiate yourself by doing things on your own way, right? And uh you know the type of soap that you make, the way that you present it to the customer, there are just hundreds of things how you can you can make it different. Right.

>> Exactly. You're not really competing cuz you only we are all unique. So whatever we bring to something >> Yeah. >> that's that's what you know there are loads of HR consultants. I thought that it would the market would be highly competitive.

there's lots of HR consultants, but actually people like and are good at different things. Plus, you need lots of it's not like one person can do it all. So, yeah, I don't and I've ended up making more friends and doing more collaboration with HR consultants than I ever did when I worked >> um employed. So, yeah, I to I totally agree. And I also think I mean look, we're I'm on a podcast that is women in AI.

I'm well aware that the diversity of people doing like constructing AI and using AI is is is not neutral across the different you know so and and even in HR if you look at I think you've got question later so apologies I I have a tendency to go there but it's like most HR systems are designed by either finance people or tech people who've never done HR are >> who've created it with a mindset of say an add-on to something else and they tend to create it from a sense of what they think we need and having implemented all sorts of HR systems across all sorts of organizations including in the NHS they're infuriating because if you'd have ever asked us we would never have dis like we would be like well don't do that that doesn't why would you but it's already comes pre-esigned so there's we can do. So we buy these products because we have no choice, not because we would have designed it like that, right? >> So when you look at even what people are using AI for, I mean when I stood up in Google and said I was going to do the messy end of HR like employee relations with AI, they were like >> what? like why would like and I'm like yeah but that's why it's an interesting thing to do because most people there this most people in fact I've just bought a really really good book by and I'm terrible with names which is a shame because I could plug her book >> we'll find it later >> we'll find it later yeah is she's a book on AI in HR and it's and it's a really good book but it it just assumes that you're not going to use it for employee relations >> because that seems too difficult and I'm like well no but that's the and So, how do you blend the human aspect of it and the LLM aspect of it? Because the first thing that a lot of people think about when they think AI in HR is uh what comes to my mind is that story with Amazon who rolled out the um screening system for CVS and they would filter out female candidates because that's how kind of the algorithm was um was constructed.

uh and then they had to scrap the whole thing. Um so um a lot of people feel that this is that technology that they don't feel like should be in that space. What would you say to >> Okay, so I think there's two answers to that. Um one is if something isn't working because of what's been fed into it, you know, it's it's what you get out what you put in. If the answer to that is we won't use it and we won't put more in, then you'll carry on getting rubbish.

The answer really is to diversify what you're putting in to make sure that it balances it. So the answer to that is to not not use it, but to you to have more users who are talking to it and feeding into it in a way that says hold on a second because you can argue with AI. In fact, you could argue I love arguing with AA because it is inherently respectful and you can correct it and it will just say I'm sorry and change it mind. Whereas humans don't do that, right? Or not very often.

Um so first of all, it's like you know like money, the printing press, um social media, AI is not inherently bad, but it depends what you do with it, right? So, so I want So, if it's not working, that's a process. You need to put better stuff in because it's >> The second thing is I mean I have gone fairly deep dive into how all of this works cuz I'm just, you know, curious and and I think I've come I'm not sure anyone really truly understands how we've le leapt forward. I know I've seen lots of explanations about, you know, the jump in how it went to matrix, but I don't think there's stuff you can get out of it is so complex. I don't think anyone can quite work out how.

And of course we do not have now a list which says well it's done if this then that. Nobody can see quite how it gets there. But my testing of it has shown that it will go where you send it. So if now I mean we've all seen I'm assuming your audience will have some idea of pro prompt designing and the kind of structure of well I've kind of taken that and and played with it because if what you do is say consider this through a feminist lens >> um using semantic analysis um psy I mean you know just saying out loud and and a psychological perspective of um traumabbased the you know I'm just throwing words out here but it it changes the answer you get. >> Yeah of course >> because because it suddenly instead of coming here it's it's it's going I'll answer the same question but if you put in feminist lens it goes and looks in a very different part of the internet and and its memory than if you just ask a straightforward question.

So, and and that completely can change >> the the the the the answer um I mean and and it's learning. So, you know, I'm I I I'll argue with it, but now it amuses me to say um and I'm talking about ChatGPT mostly here or although I have used the others, is I'll say, "Okay, go and read what you've just said and tell me why I'm going to criticize you and how." And it goes back and it goes, "I've done it again, haven't I, Amy?" And it and it and it cuz it it not Do you see what I mean? And I'm like, so cuz if you think about that sentence, that sentence, go and read what you've said and work out what I've it doesn't actually tell you very much, does it?

>> Yeah. But it has a memory about you. >> Exactly. So what it's doing is And then it goes, "Ah, I can see a word." And >> Yeah.

So it's like So it's like how Okay. It's a hell. I think that's why, you know, I've had a lot of people say, "Oh, you know, I used AI model and it's been rubbish. The answer that I got was was wrong." And then I'm thinking, first of all, you know, probably you tried it several months ago and since then the amount of updates that have been uh made means that it might be so completely different to to what you tried.

And the other aspect is what how did you prompt it? >> Yeah. >> Right. Because it's if you put the garbage in, you're going to get garbage out. Um >> so that's a that's a difficult thing.

But what I would love to know is you're your background is HR, psychology, and law, but you're not um a software engineer. How did you find uh creating a product like AI and me as a as a non-technical founder? >> So in some ways right at this moment in time so May 2026 that actually might be an advantage. So I am a systems thinker. I've always thought in systems um but I never learned how to code.

And it means that I think in systems but but don't have all the presumptions or expectations that coders have of how something happens. So I ask the darest questions and and because I don't know the answer can't be that I go different ways. And actually I don't you see I although obviously we're still in product development the the product we're going to create isn't going to be about complicated coding. It's going to be about how do we you know essentially very very high-end prompt engineering but with also memory storage and you know ways of of doing al so actually it's almost easier if that makes that makes sense because I don't have the um and I mean the way I do some HR for you know various different companies uh because it's still an easier way to make money than running a trade union Um, and you know, I'm looking at the changes in in recruitment for coders and it is changing very fast >> because they're starting to, you know, they're starting to use a I mean, okay, so they're mostly using what Claude, you know, but they they're using it anyway. So, it's, you know, so it's it's getting an easy and the curve on how this is growing and changing is just phenomenal, isn't it?

I mean, I don't think I I didn't download anything until January 2025. I was vaguely aware and I'd played around with it, but I got bored. It was too It was too slow. It didn't work. It can now go fast enough that my brain is happy.

You know, it's like >> Yeah, I know exactly what you mean because um my partner, he played around. He was trying to create this, you know, tool and he was struggling. It was several months ago. And then I showed him a couple of things I was working on recently and he was like, "Oh my god, it evolved so fast. I need to learn.

I need to go back and and do it because it's changing so fast." >> Exactly. when well you know when um a new launch comes I don't think even some people I understand that but they don't notice the different models in the different but I'll go and play around with the models and switch them backwards and forwards to see what the differential is and stuff and I'm like plus like you said the volume um ChatGPT did it like an end ofear summary which amused me and I kind of asked it and it's but I'd our chats it summarized them as about 20,000 words from last year >> which is like more than a novel which is quite a lot if that made sense in the scheme of things. >> And I know that while you're building this product uh you said that you're um an NLP practitioner but this word is also used in >> so what so what does it mean in AI? >> So that's the natural language processing.

So I would love you to explain our audience what is the difference between the two. >> Um >> Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh and and my gut feeling is that actually the the understanding being a practitioner of NLP helps you with the large language models.

>> Neural linguistic programming is what NLP means to to me. Um, and I'm, you know, there are more I'm not a I wouldn't consider I could consider myself a practitioner and not an expert. But my understanding of it is that we as humans have a tendency to think we have complete free will and every choice we ever make is entirely, you know, in in reality, we're all running systems and codes and most of it is habit. Um, so generally speaking, you'll probably have the breakfast, you know, even the decision about what breakfast to have. You might have a different breakfast on a Saturday or a wet Sunday or whatever.

There still, you're still running sort of processes. But what people don't always realize is language between people written, it prompts certain presumptions and expectations about how you then behave. So, I mean sales people use this a lot. An example is um you'll have seen this, but if if a salesperson is trying to progress you and get, you know, get you to take a call, they might end an email saying, "What would work better for you, a meeting on Tuesday or Thursday?" >> Yeah.

Instead of asking people >> Yeah. Because if you say, "Do you want to have a meeting?" A lot of people will say, "No." If you say, "Which would work better for you, Tuesday or Thursday?" you will it could significantly change your answers to someone saying Tuesday or Thursday.

It doesn't even occur to a lot of people to say neither. Um I mean obviously people do or ignore the email but it is that kind of thing that you can use language to. >> Now it can be used very unethically and manipulatively and I think you have to be a little bit careful about that. But if you look at I mean we've all we've all seen or or gone down holes on say Facebook where you b you know you see something to buy and then you kind of see a whole long thing of like this this and if this and this that and those are psychologically designed using things like NLP to get you to an end point. And what have you what really makes me smile but actually annoys me a little bit but is that you know where you it you kind of asked for an upsell.

So, it's like you've decided to buy whatever and it's £9, but then the upsell is £199, you know, but if you do it in 24 hours or 24 minutes or whatever, and you can click no, but the sentence says no, I don't want to invest in my future or something. And you have to click on that. Of course, what they're trying to do is trying to get you to you don't want to click that button because you don't want to say I don't want to invest in my future. So it hopes you click on the big, you know, yellow nice button saying I believe in myself. >> Yeah.

>> Right. And then they'll use whatever and and of course they'll they'll have upsells and down cells. So if you say no, it will go down a bit. You know, it's like this. These are very sophisticatedly designed and once you understand, you know, I don't try and replicate them, but I understand how they work.

that's, you know, but we I use some of it in a positive way in in what I do. So, what I'll often do, so when I draft a a letter, say a dismissal letter, it's not an easy message to give most people, right? Most people will d the context, and in fact, sometimes they'll do a long letter explaining 24 reasons why you're going to sack someone, which just is unpleasant. Just don't. you you've made the decision.

You don't have to labor a point. >> You can ask for >> for that, right? Afterwards. >> Well, yeah, but that's a different debate because most people lose in court. But anyway, and then most people don't get to call either.

But you can write along or what you can do is you say, "What do you need to say?" Right? And then can you soften the language around it so you don't lose the message. So for example, I'll write a dismissal letter which says let's say it's to do with capability which is to do with ill health which is never easy right? You say and someone's been off sick for a long time.

>> It's like thank you for coming into the meeting. We're really um you know it's it was awful to see how much you're struggling. Um, having reviewed all the information, um, we feel we have no choice but to end your contract. However, we don't, we wish we didn't have to do this. Um, we will be as supportive as we can.

Um, we will give you notice. You know, you need to put some details in actually what happens next otherwise, you know, and you can't be so soft that they don't understand you're ending their contract. But you can then at the end I'll put things like thank you for everything you've done for this company. We wish you all the best in your future. Please remember that I know you've had a tough time and but we hope that you find something and even if I've sacked someone for gross misconduct unless it's na I mean there's some of that really nasty.

I ain't going to soften that but you know I've done abuse and like really horrible stuff. Not going to soften that. But sometimes people get dismissed for doing something dafted and they're going to get dismissed but like it doesn't need to be the end of their lives. You it doesn't need to be game and so you can say look I you made a mistake here and we've you know we feel we have to do this however remember that >> there are other opportunities and we wish you you know and by adding those emotional linguistic things it's still going to hurt but it doesn't hurt quite so much. >> Yeah.

I think a lot of people understate how how language impacts individuals because uh I was just uh on watching a real on Instagram and they were saying don't say uh expensive say investment >> right >> yeah because there a what one is expensive is a cost investment is something that will become something later you're still spending money But the psychological difference between those two words is massive. >> Yeah. And and I was thinking that and I was like, "Yeah, actually, you know, this is how I'm going to phrase things moving forward." But it has such a the example that you gave it such a difference between, you know, you're receiving that message versus being you're being dismissed due to ill health. This is the final date.

uh which is and it also means that when you leave that company the way that you're going to talk about your employer is going to be completely different you know um I've had companies where let's say I I left voluntarily but the impression that I have of them is this is one of the best companies to work for I would recommend that you know uh but there are going to be companies where your feeling about about leaving them is just not pleasant Exactly. And I think you humans will also people will if you give them a way to save face, they'll take it. So um I'll give you another example. So um there was a situation once where somebody rang me and said I got into an argument with a member of staff. I shouted at them and I sat them on the spot.

>> And I'm like oh blime me. That's and she was like what on earth how do we and I'm like okay so she obviously I'm not going to tell you the details or context or whatever but um I'm like okay there were grounds to dismiss the person but obviously doing it in anger in like that is not is doesn't break you know especially if someone's got service breaches all the rules. So I said, "Okay." So, right. So, I was kind of like thinking, "How do we So, I what I did was I drafted a letter that said, "Thank you for your resignation.

Um, it's a shame that you're leaving, but we understand your reasons. We wish to part on good terms. if you could just return the few things you've got, we'll obviously pay you as normal and happy to give you a reference. >> Yeah. >> Right.

And the CEO went, "Well, that's just all rubbish." And I'm like, "Yes, but it's a reality that I suspect the person who's just been dismissed on the spot would prefer." So, they've got a choice now. They can accept this reality. we all know that this isn't what happened.

>> But or they can argue and say, "Well, you know, you dismissed." In which case, we you know, we're going to end up in court and it will be well because there's um a defense of you would have done it anyway, but you just didn't do it great. >> Right. And most people don't realize that. And the courts will massively reduce compensation.

So, and when I talk to a lawyer, so it's not it's not enough to just say, "Well, they're not allowed to do it like that." It was like, well, yeah, but they probably would have done it anyway, so yeah, they didn't shouldn't have done it like that. So, we'll give you some money because they should have done it better, but we're not giving you lots and lots of money, so it's not you. >> So, so, so, but when you phrase it completely and and they were like, that'll never work. And I'm like, well, we don't really lose anything from doing that and it completely deescalates.

So, she's like, well, let's just try it. Then, the bloke wrote back say, "Thank you very much. I'll drop the keys off tomorrow. >> Yeah. >> Job done.

And it's like so so it's like if you give people Yeah. It you know it's psychology >> of course. So I would love to know what are some of the mistakes that you see founders make when it comes to people management. >> There are probably the two biggest mistakes are one people think it's easy and they should and everybody should be able to do it. Um and I'll come back to that.

And then the second is underestimating the emotional impact and sticking very much to procedures. So the first one I think the example I usually give to someone is say um if you went would you go up to a violinist in the London Symphony Orchestra as a complete violin beginner as a you know and say can you just tell me in 10 minutes how to learn to play the violin so I can play in a concert next week. >> Exactly. It's ridiculous. No one would ever do that.

Right. Do you know how many people do that to HR people and kind of come up and go well just give me like the five top tips so I can do all of this? They forget there's a massive skill and they think they also think it's like innate that everybody like every they think now don't get me wrong there are people there are founders with fabulous people skills who have done HR and are good at conflict management and are good at recruitment. >> Of course there are. There are, >> but there's lots that haven't ever done it.

I mean, I get calls from time to time and there's massive panic. I'm like, "Okay, to you, this is the worst thing you've ever done." So, on a scale of how difficult this is as an employee relations issue, this is a nine out of 10 for you. This is a 1 out of 10 for me. This is just not that difficult.

So, they underest like they sort of overestimate how easy it should be and they underestimate how much of a skill that you have to learn. And yet, you'd never do that in a violin store or or skiing. You wouldn't you wouldn't just go to the top of a of a the most difficult black run and go, "Well, yeah, I know I've never put skis on before, but I'll be fine. >> I'll give it a try." >> And it it's really hard because how do you say to like if they don't get it at the beginning, it's like how do you say to someone, "I know you.

" It's called the Dunning Krueger effect in psychology. It's like >> you've heard. Yeah. Where like the irony is that the people who know the least about something tend to be very confident they know everything. >> The people who are really experienced know how messy it is.

So sometimes people come to me with a really I'm like okay we can do this but this is going to be carnage and they're like what do you mean? I'm like cuz I know >> like what's Yeah. And I'm like I know how I know this 20 steps ahead and this is going to be hard to put back in the box, right? This is started something off that you're going to find the gen is not going back in the box. >> Yeah.

This is going to be hard to manage. Do you know what I mean? So if you know if I'm a first-time founder and I have a growing business at what point do I need a person within who is going to be an HR person or when do I employ them and I think I see a lot of people who do it quite late why do you think they do it that late is that that effect >> I I I think to be honest it's and having you know run company like small companies and and and also worked in larger companies. I'm a great believer that you can't you can't always tell someone in advance how difficult something's going to be. They have to just find out.

>> So I'm like I don't think there is a right time. I think there's just understanding as a founder when you get to the point where you're struggling, you're spending a lot of your time dealing with staffing issues, you're not getting the outcomes you want, then go get some help. like whether that's cuz a lot of people the mistakes they make aren't say in how to get rid of people. there. How did you design the job in the first place?

Or how did you recruit >> or how did you do probation? You know, it's like the problem was here. But >> but actually I think people learn this. So I think in reality what tends to happen is they try it out, it goes wrong, they get their fingers burnt, you hope they don't it like it's, you know, it's probably not going to be so disastrous their company goes down, right? So it's like then they're like it happens again they tend to go and get help that time like if they've gone through a whole tribunal process and lost or even if they've won and realized it takes a lot >> it was not worth that time right >> and it's like so so I think I think the answer is just when you you know ask for help when you need it.

I still think there's a balance, isn't there? It's like as a founder, half the problem is you're you're just you have to kind of you're always kind of thinking, look, what is the minimal viable product? How do I you know, you've never got enough money. I don't unless you've suddenly gone out and got, you know, a huge amount of venture capital. But even then, you've got different pressures, haven't you?

Because if you take venture capital, the investors want income straight away. So, it's like you've got a different pressure. But like unless you've got or you or you happen to have inherited or something, right? Unless you've got you're always going, "Well, what's the minimum?" Like, so can I get away with a bit of that?

Like I mean, I'm sitting in this fabulous obviously it's off camera, but the fabulous um studio with lights, etc. But and this, you know, this will work much better, but you most people can start like this, right? So, so you start with well, whatever you've got. if it's your, you know, there's a fabulous camera there that looks very impressive, but most people are going to start with their iPhone, right? So, the same is true.

It's like do what you can. Now, once I've tested AI and me on HR and we've got it kind of right, um I think then this will fill that I'm hoping this will fill that gap because it will be something you can access quickly that is better than an LLM on its own but not as expensive as a an HR consultant. Um because actually and and I I mean I don't about you but founders um are quickly taking I mean the things that you can do yourself now that in the past they're making the barriers to entry into business so much easier because you can I mean I I do all my accountancy essentially or all my understanding of my money through my stling account because it just run I can run all the reports I need you know without um without any con like this is all I mean this is AI embedded in it presum presumably predicting what if I buy a train ticket it knows it's a train it knows it's travel well there must be a bit of AI somewhere behind going that you know the first time that ever comes in well it's the train line so it's probably a train ticket therefore it's probably transport so but the things you can do now on your own >> yeah I think you know there has never been an easier time to start a company but you know a A lot of the for example the the major advantage with the company that you're building with the product you're building is the the 20 years that you spend in HR right and just because you can now use um Claude Code let's say to to code it and create the the website and the product but just the fact that you can you know use the template UX template and the the fact that you can code the thing and create the website doesn't mean that it's easy to actually make that business be a business. Right. >> That's true.

But that's where I mean what you're you're talking about several things embedded in that one is I think credibility and trust because I think people, you know, need that. But then there's also how to run a business, how how do you sell, how do you get customers, etc. and they're two slightly different issues, but I think that's where it has because I think coming from a public sector career in HR, which is about as far from commercial reality as you can possibly get, I would suggest like, you know, it's it's not even Yeah, it's not even big misses. It's like cuz cuz HR you most of the time your customers don't want you fundamentally when you when you're in a large organizations, they have no choice. They don't they don't get to pick their HR.

someone picks you but not them, right? Um and even then you you're along you know you're a back office service you're not it's vital to the organization but you're not directly selling to customers and the public sector in itself isn't I mean yes it's got customers and it's got product etc but it's not selling in a traditional way right so that was about as far as you can possibly get from so I had a lot to learn but I hadn't realized how all that experience also buys credibility in terms of what I can do so and and having got senior like quite early on in my career, having been thrown into really difficult employee relations stuff, running a trade union I founded um for almost seven years now has given me um a level of experience and I guess credibility that that is unusual especially as you know I'm often considered as difficult and argumentative and you know challen I mean I got in trouble when I was in HR for supporting employees too much. And the reason I ended up setting up a trade union is because I whistle blew and blew up my HR career. >> So, but whilst that was one of the hardest things I've ever done, I have such a like if it's not fair, I will fight to the ends of the universe sometimes too far. Sometimes, you know, I should probably give up earlier, but I I can't.

I don't know. you know um but all of this has built a credibility if that makes sense which is unusual it but like it goes back to that so so I think cuz we we do buy from people or from like when we buy from a brand it's it's a perception of who that is why advertising works with famous people isn't it is like we're kind of like well if that famous person likes it we kind of assume well >> I might be a bit so >> if I see Michael Jordan in those shoes. >> I can be kind of okay. >> Okay. I mean, most people say, "Well, advertising doesn't work on me.

" And it's like, well, >> yeah, but how how when was the last time you bought something you'd never heard of and you never heard of the brand and you didn't and even even branding that is so people don't often understand the subconscious. So, if they go into a they buy say a shampoo they've never bought before and it's a new brand, but they won't realize there'll be all sorts of things about the color, the lettering, the font, the positioning, the that will be subconsciously telling them whether it's a um high-end product, whether it's a, you know, health brand, you know, so so they Exactly. So, so we are being told to all the time whether we realize it or not. Um, so yeah, I think I waffled on and I'm not sure what you were talking about. So, you know, setting up business and I think that's another thing.

I mean, I this probably happens to you, but if I get on an Uber these days and sometimes people want to chat and they'll ask what you do and as soon as you sort of say some of the things they do, they're like, I've got an idea. could you like and people don't realize it's often not the idea that is people have fabulous ideas >> but implementing it it's not as easy like it's really not that easy like I've heard loads of people say well I can't tell anyone about my idea because they'll steal it >> it's like well to be honest that's not how it works most of the time you could tell everybody and they won't be able to deliver the hard bit is actually and if you don't tell anyone what you're doing you can almost certainly guarantee you won't sell anything So, and these days as a small founder, I mean, I think one of your questions that you'd had sent me involves was like um about how you know do you talk about your journey and you know, but what I learned is well actually if you talk about what you're doing as a story like I'm thinking of doing something new, here's a bit this went well, customers like this. What do you think? You create a whole load of social media product and interaction with potentially your customers. That's a far better journey anyway.

>> Yeah, of course. >> So you I mean I guess theoretically someone can try and take but I had this conversation with my brother who um invest etc. and and he he's like well and he he was being supportive. was sort of, you know, I'd asked him to be um sort of challenged and stuff and he said, "Well, what couldn't anyone do this?" And I said to him, "Okay, so if you're doing it, where would you start?

" And he said, "I don't know." I said, "And that's why I can do it and you can't because you don't know where to start to create an HR, you know." >> Of course. Yeah. And when it comes to building in public, what have you learned?

Especially I'm going to ask that as as a woman because I think the criticism online and offline for women who are on on social media and they're talking about something that they've built or whatever else is much much worse in many ways than for men. and I've definitely seen that. But what would you say about that and what advice would you have for them as well? I think because I did I created a product um called the entrepreneur mindset development um program and I from I didn't finish my PhD but I you know and cuz I came up with something good I launched it I hoped it would work and actually then realized it did work from an intellectual perspective but people didn't perceive it was solving a problem they had right so it didn't work like the the thing works but nobody wanted to buy it. >> Um what what one of those things so the what it actually measured was the seven mindsets that you need to run a business and things like tolerance of risk and tolerance of ambiguity.

I think there is a lot of challenge of women and on social media. But part of creating anything new or setting up a business is you're going to have to deal with a hell of a lot of failure. You're going to have to deal with everybody criticizing you. You're going to have to deal with trolls. You're going to have to deal with funding problems.

You're going to have to deal with failed launches, bad launches, people changing your marketing. like um you can attempt to circumvent all of that, but you're going to have to have a lot of money or a lot of you know, but even then it's so I think it comes down the other way. I think I would argue society can be pretty brutal to women, >> but that's made some pretty strong women. And I saw something that said if and I'm paraphrasing because I can't remember exactly what it was said, but it was along the lines of if women are so naturally quiet and submissive, they seem to be doing a good job of arguing against it. It's like, how come they didn't give up already?

How come they've spent hundreds of thousands of years like arguing? How come they're always, you know, it's it's and it so we've kind So I suppose I mean it shouldn't be this way. It shouldn't be this hard. And I'd like to think we can create an environment for our children, grandchildren, great grandchildren that isn't quite as brutal as this. But it's like well you do it anyway cuz it's like what what's the worst that going to happen?

You know I look an absolute idiot. I'm not going to get my legs chopped off. I mean we live in a world I mean I could but it seems unlikely, right? We're not I mean if you know if I'd been born 400 years ago, I would have been burned as a witch. There's absolutely no doubt about it.

I can only assume that my ancestors hid well or had enough like this cuz cuz there's no way we weren't difficult like do you know what I mean? So it's like we well we've learned how to you know it's rubbish but we've learned how to so yeah but I believe the stats especially in the UK are more and more like the proportion of new businesses that have been set up by women and are successful. So there are less, but they're more successful when when it happens. And I mean, when I turned over a million pounds in my second year in business, there were all sorts of reasons. And it was in the middle of a pandemic.

And it was a it was never going to stay like that. I didn't realize that only one in a 100 femaleled businesses ever turns over a million pounds, let alone in a pandemic in the second year because I didn't know that and I just did it anyway. And there are all sorts of complexities about, you know, why and how. I would not suggest scaling that fast ever again, but too far too scary. Um, but you know, it's like, well, why not?

And you know, even if people start a business and it doesn't work, you learn social media skills, you learn communication skills, you learn AI skills, you these are things that if you go back into employment, they're still useful. So >> you know you had really successful career in HR working uh in NHS and working across different companies. What made you decide that you wanted to work on on your own? >> Well getting sacked was pretty um I was suspended for I put in complaints about bullying the chief exec bullying um about equal pay um about some whistleblowing about some really dodgy stuff. And that my book is about this, by the way.

That's I mean, yeah, that is a plug. Go read the book. But um I put in my complaints and they offered me 30 grand to just go away. I said, "No." And they said, "Well, how much money do we have to give you, Amy?

" And I'm like, "It's not about money. I'm not going away. This isn't okay. I'm not signing an NDA. What you've been doing is wrong.

" >> They were like, "Well, you just want more money then." I'm like, "No, you're not listening." And then they were like, "Well, we've got stuff on you." You know, I was like, got stuff on me. What on earth does that mean?

Like, so they suspended me the morning after. I was on full pay suspension for 14 months because they didn't know what to do with me. They off they offered me a promotion. They offered to pay me off. They offered me redundancy.

And I said, "No." I said, "Light." And they didn't investigate anything I put in, but I could be pretty determined and stubborn. And um there was pretty nasty stuff going on. So I'm like, "No, I'm not I'm not hiding all of this.

I'm not." Um, so eventually they pretty much had no choice but to sack me and then I sued them and I lost in court. But then I wrote a book and put all their names in it and told the story, which you know is not what they expected me to do. However, I did know that all of that meant I was not walking into another HR job in the public sector >> because nobody wants somebody who is going to sue the chief exec for bullying. I mean they did we did 22 meetings and there were three external investigations of which they lost all of them >> and the external barristers you know and I've put some of the quotes in the book but you know said that the chief executive behaved unacceptably um you know I didn't have I mean I could have not done all of that and carried on in my career but I don't know that you always wonder would if something.

If you had to stand up for a principle and put everything on the line and risk it, would you do it? And I know the answer to that. >> Yeah. But I think >> so I didn't have a choice cuz I'd blown up my career. >> I think in a way though it means that you from what I understand you had to go all in on funding your own company, right?

Which is the silver lining. uh because a lot of people find it really hard to quit you know the comfortable job but if you don't have that option then you go for what for what you can um which is great you know and it worked out as well >> well the irony is I mean in business speak and MBAs it's called the burning platform it's the idea that sometimes the only way you can change something is if you've got a burning platform and you've got no choice >> or the ice caps are melting or whatever the people use different analogies but some CEOs I and they even get taught this in some MBAs will set a fire to the platform essentially to create the change. Um, which I don't think is particularly ethical if you you know, but what happened to me wasn't okay, but I'm kind of pleased how I did what I mean cuz it cuz I would probably just still be a public sector HR manager. And actually, >> this is so much better. >> And I love what I I mean, people ask me, it's like, don't get me wrong, I have terrible days.

I had a terrible week last week. Like things aren't always perfect. Like my life can be very complicated. And but when people say, you know, that kind of question where people just say, "How are you?" And you know, you're sort of supposed to say, "Okay.

" Or most people say, "It's awful." You know, and I'm like, "Fabulous." And they're like, you can see the look on their face thinking, "She being ironic. Is what's going on here?" Now, don't get me wrong, not every moment of every day is fabulous, right?

I have terrible days but generally it's like cuz cuz I wake up thinking I am doing what exactly I don't believe in I don't believe like we are born with a life plan but I do believe I am doing exactly what is best you know using my skills in the best possible way. I I've met so many people who, you know, for example, they were um either they were laid off from the job or or something happened and initially it comes as a shock and people feel like this is the worst thing that happened to them and in a lot of instances it's the best thing that happened to them. Uh so I think it's it's funny how it can work some in some in some instances. Yeah. And I think I think it can be close because I think sometimes those things are just too much and they it can go either way, can't it?

Some people never work again and struggle. I have met you know >> and some people so it's but yeah it's uh it's if you would have told me 12 years ago that I'd be sitting here right now doing this having this conversation I would not have believed you in a million years. >> But it just goes to show how far you know you've come. >> Yeah. So if you could change one thing about how organizations manage people, how what would that be?

And why do you think it hasn't happened yet or it is taking a long time uh to is is taking a while to for that shift to happen. Empathy just understanding and sometimes self-mpathy. So understanding I don't even know whether that's a phrase but understanding how other people experience things and also the impact it's having on you because almost everything else if you do it empathetically understanding it completely changes how everything works. Even like we all make mistakes, right? But if the if you if something happens, managers often are very defensive.

Organizations are very defensive. The quickest easy things in the world you can say is sorry. And yet so rarely does it happen. A friend of mine, Adele, Dr. Adele Curry, she's a director of HR, and she was reviewing, and she put this on social media, so I'm not like saying anything.

I'm not allowed to. um that she looked at all the grievances and and found that there was never one that said we were wrong and we completely uphold the grievance. And that's very true in organizations. They almost never say we were wrong. They almost always say either this is completely unfounded or partially founded.

They say something waffly like there are learnings from this or something, you know, but it's like why don't we just sometimes say ah my bag that went wrong. >> Yeah. and learn from it. >> Yeah. And just say um or think in advance like um I've known pe like I've known people do things like suspend people on a Friday just before they go on holiday of a lifetime.

>> And I'm like don't do what why would you do that to someone, right? you've just wrecked that holiday for no like they're not going to be here for 3 weeks. Like just let them go on holiday and then suspend them when they get back. Like just like you're going to suspend it. I'm not saying don't suspend them, but like don't do that.

And also do you need to suspend them anyway? But like that's a different conversation. It's like or I've seen people do stuff like say, "Well, it's it's completely neutral. you know, we're going to sit people down and tell them that they might lose their jobs, but it's no big deal and they can just get on with it. Like, no, that's not neutral.

Like, but also being empathetic to themselves because I think HR people are burning out. I mean, the statistics on HR people um being burnt out and not wanting to leave the profession because they're taking so much emotional burden. Um, and that can make people quite defensive and cold and and it's not their fault. It's really not their fault, but it's it's, you know, it's cuz showing up as a person. So, yes.

So, that's a long complicated way of saying empathy. And when you say how to fix it, it's like I believe we need to teach this in schools in the same way that like we spend all this time teaching people math, science, all the rest of it. Fabulous. Need to keep doing that. But we don't spend any time teaching people how to cope with their own anxieties, work as a team, build relationships, build team, you know, like let's >> I think what what helps me a lot is thinking, okay, if I was in the shoes of that other person, how would I feel?

And it completely changes how I think about that situation. And I think if a lot of people if people ask themselves that question, they might act completely differently. >> I think that's fabulous. And I think if everybody did that, life would be easier. But I'm going to push you and say the harder the next question is trying to imagine what someone who's very different from you might experience.

For example, I did a big payroll project in the NHS where we we were all going to go live and we hadn't tested it. That's a different issue. But anyway, and I was like, we need cash in we need cash in the thing and ways of paying people. And the directors were like, why? I said because we have a significant proportion of our staff who if we don't pay them on the right day some of their bills will default >> and they have no mechanisms and they're like well they could put it on a credit card.

I said you're not understanding there are people who are running to the edge. >> Yeah. And they're like, "Well, yeah, but that's fine. They'll just find like, no, you do not understand." Like, and I said, "Whilst we can fix it, it will probably take us a couple of days, right?

" But you're putting someone you could put someone into absolute crisis financially because >> especially if they've been like if if someone's defaulted on a mortgage before or something and they've sort of been told if you default again. >> Yeah. Of course, you can have major >> Yeah. Um but but people are like or that classic where someone says well if you want to save money then just don't buy a coffee every day like at Starbucks and it's like okay you clearly have never lived on no money because the people who've got no money are not buying Starbucks every day. What you're doing is talking to middle class people who could need to save a few p like do you know what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah. >> So, understanding perspectives that are very different from yours is a different level of empathy. I mean, it's called theory of mind in psychology. And it's not easy to do.

And we don't even try. Most people don't even try. In fact, they ass tend to project like it's good to empathize and do what you just said, but it's only one, you know, >> like like men assuming that um I mean that the sexual harassment laws are changing and have got much tougher and a lot of men, the good ones, assume that very, very few women have ever been sexually harassed at work. >> Yeah. when the stads are a really high I I've never met anyone who hasn't been and would be my if you ask women offcreen like or whatever and they're like that can't be true and it's like you you just have no idea or or you know why do you feel unsafe walking down a dark street you know it's like it's it can be really difficult to get or the other way around I think sometimes where you know we're talking about gender here but where they might not realize that a say a senior director might feel very pressurized to perform form because of their own sense of self.

They may feel very pressurized to make money for their family and that's not a small thing if your entire family is you know >> relying on you. >> Let's do a fast round. Okay. Uh what's the best piece of advice anyone gave you about starting from scratch the way you have done with your company? You know, whatever it is, be curious.

Keep, you know, ask questions and find out because if you ask, I wonder how, I wonder where, I wonder, you know, be curious then. >> And people are more um people are so open to helping actually other people when you ask. So >> that's a good one. Um what uh do you think is a thing that AI will never be able to do in kind of conflict when it comes to conflict management or replace human presence you know simple I'm sure at some point we'll have robots being able to talk and but the just something about building rapport you know whether it's smell eye contact or the rest of it I just I think you can reassure someone. You can upset someone very quickly.

You can also reassure them very quickly. It may do it in 200 years or 50 years or something, but I think it's going to really struggle to >> What's the uh we talked about about this, but what's an age mistake that you see people do again and again >> do everything based on what would they win in court >> when nobody wants to go to court. It's much better to focus on how do I solve the conflict here so that we never go to court. >> Thank you so much for this. I learned a lot.

>> It's been fabulous. Thank you. >> I learned so much from this conversation with Amy and if you enjoy this episode, please share it with someone who would benefit from it. Thanks so much for listening and I'll see you in the next one.