An Executive Coach Explains Why You Are Resisting AI & How to Stop | Women Lead AI Ep 2 I K. Hartman

My guest today has built people functions in over 30 countries, scaled five companies from the ground up, helped raise over 200 million in funding, and taken a company all the way to the NASDAQ. She has done all of this not as a founder, not as a CEO, but as the person that founders and CEOs quietly rely on more than anyone else in the building. She is a psychologist, an executive coach, and someone who has spent 25 years sitting with people at their most honest in the moments that actually define a company's culture. She has won global awards for mental health strategy, built workplaces that rank among the most loved in the world, and travel to over 100 countries. She now runs her own consultancy and coaches some of the most senior leaders in tech.

Kelly Hartman, welcome to Woman Lead AI. So, Kelly, um, welcome to, uh, Women Lead AI podcast. Thank you so much for your time and for coming on here. Really excited. >> Yeah, of course.

Me, too. >> You're a psychologist by training. >> Yeah. And you spent like the past 25 years inside various organization watching how people respond to change. >> Sure.

>> I would say probably AI is the biggest change that is happening right now. >> What what does your psychology background tell you about why so many people are resisting that change? >> So I think it's really important to know and I have this whole philosophy that there's no oneizefits- all. So there are a lot of people resisting it but there are also a lot of people embracing that and I think that's really important to note because irrespective of your age your gender where you are in the world what role you play in the organization you are going to get um different types of approaches and how people respond to this um why I think you know in in just from a psychological or even just a human point of view people resist change when it's unknown to them. When you know people are afraid of the unknown, it's different.

You know, even in in life, people like sometimes their comforts, they like to have a routine and this throws everything out. So, I think one of it is the unknown. I think another aspect is that they're seeing in the media that people are losing jobs and maybe part of that is because of AI but I don't really believe that completely. I believe part of it is people just you know have over spent on headcount or that they're getting rid of underperformers. not saying that everyone that you know I want to put that as a big caveat be if if if someone is exited from an organization they've used AI as the reason why I'm not saying everyone's underperformed but sometimes those departments maybe are not needed or they've over spent and things like that so I think a the fear of the unknown I think what the media and especially social media which is at our fingertips these days and you see all the headlines 10,000 people lose jobs because of AI And I think that scares a lot of people, right?

>> Yeah. I think I did hear on another podcast where they were saying like actually a lot of companies, you know, they hired so many people during co and now they don't need them anymore and kind of normal sort of economy. So they're just using AI as this kind of uh thing that they can put blame on. And yeah, a lot of a lot of it comes from that. >> I was at um also a panel the other day.

It was all on AI. It was really interesting. And you had people CPOS. You also had like board members of the AI governance in in finance and just people from you know broadcasting studios and just like CEOs and you know the conversation was had like and I think that that is scaring people the most you know. What what was the uh do you want to tell me more about the uh was a conference?

>> It was like a No, it was a panel and yeah, it was a panel and it was I really enjoyed it like you know I think there was diverse views. There are some people that think it's all hype and there were others that don't and that actually believe that you know we've got to embrace this you know same as many things that you know I came from the age when we you know computers came later like you know we didn't grow up with computers we didn't have phones at our fingertips I think I'm seeing a lot on the Instagram like reals about what it was like growing up in the 80s and 90s that's me you know and so we didn't have all of that at our fingertips but I I think you know even my father who's 76 like he asked me to do stuff with AI like more of the you know perplexity or claude and things like that because I've traveled so much and my whole life has been out of my comfort zone getting up and living across the different sides of the world like I'm one of those that is curious and will try. I am not great in tech like tech isn't my you know but it helps me do my job so much easier. So, I think those that embrace it and are curious and want to learn what it's about will you use it and utilize it and and others are are more afraid and won't even try different things. And so, a lot of it is a mindset and a lot of it is is and I really believe a lot is mindset.

>> Yeah, I 100% agree. And I think when we think about like any technology coming on onto the market, you know, you can be in the camp of like oh like this is going to destroy jobs like it's it's you know all doom and gloom and then or you can be in the camp like oh this is the biggest opportunity that you know has ever been in my lifetime. Like I'm going to find a way to to make use of it. So you know and the doom and gloom like it doesn't help you. I don't think it helps you in any way.

So if if you embrace it and you know if let's say you are the the you know the best person that knows this particular thing like you can really position yourself as like an expert. So >> of course and you can learn and you can grow yourself and I think inherent in my nature I'm not a doom and gloom person. And I've always been maybe overly optimistic. Um I know I mentioned to you before that I'm listening to a lot of Derek Grant at the moment which is things come within you like you you know and I'm very much that we're accountable for everything that happens in our life bad or good right like if I take accountability for for things even the shitty stuff that goes wrong in my life I'm free. I'm more powerful in that.

And I think the same is with AI, right? You know, when I first heard of it, I was like so curious. What is this? You know, it started with ChatGPT originally. Um, but I've also like perplexity.

I've had Claude for a while like and then AI. I mean, we were using AI in so many different ways in machine learning and data science and you know, and I see it as an opportunity. Like for me, I just did a big proposal for a broadcasting studio for a TV series. Like straight out, not it's not inherent in my CPO role, but I'm also a creative. Like I'm working for a a major rap artist at the moment.

And in the proposal I was doing with his organization, I used Claude to help me put a presentation together that would have taken me weeks because it's so fiddly and I can't put stuff together and and design work and videos. And it made my life easier so I could get creative about what I want to do. And if people see it as actually it's going to make my life more enriching and I'm going to outsource some of the stuff that I I didn't love. My boyfriend, he he codes, right? He also runs implementations for big companies.

And you know, I talked to him and I'm like, customers still want to a from person to talk to them through implementation and changes, but he's learning different things on the weekends to help skill him up on how to utilize the AI better, right? So, yeah, you might not need the same type of engineering. It may change, but you need to be able to change with it or find something else that you really want to do. So let's say that you know someone is um in they have like quite a big company they you know they h they employ about 70 80 people and they're like okay we have chat GBT available to employees where you know how do we actually like how do we actually implement AI into like our operations and like what mistakes do you see companies do as about while they go for that change. >> So I think being really honest about things about what you're using AI for like challenging people to see how they can use AI to make their jobs more enriching or faster or or do different things like to outsource the work that you know actually it's taking you so much time to do.

So I think being open, having a strategy around it too, bringing people along with it and going through a change management process like you know we started well the engineering was using a different type of AI than we were you know for for for some of their work. As an organization, we used Glean across the organization and we had workshops with everyone that was invited and then it started off with the senior leaders first and the exec and then the the people leaders and then bringing everyone on the journey and I think that's that's a mistakes that I hear people aren't making. you know like people are bringing it in too late or they're not encouraging that or they're not having AI as as part of their whole strategy. So each department at our previous organization spoke to you know an expert in AI to see how we could better use AI in our functions and and that means people are brought along that journey and then you're not scared of it because we're encouraged to use it and I think that's you've got to be transparent about that. And how do you think how much responsibility lies on the leadership team to drive this versus employees wanting to you know trying to uh drive the change and implementing it into their like processes.

>> I think a lot has to rest with you as an individual like we're in charge of our own careers. We're in I I run a program being the CEO of your career and that is I've been running that for 20 25 years in different various ways but you're in control at the end of the day like I can't blame my organization because I haven't upskilled or I'm not learning or I'm not curious like you've got to have the grit the ownership that you know goes back to ownership accountability so yes it's a responsibility for leadership but I'm not going to outsource that responsibility ever like I'm in charge of my own career I'm in charge Imagine my growth, my learning. And I think my big thing is the mindset, circle of influence, circle of control. AI is here, right? Like your last of human freedom, which is Victor Frankle.

I don't know if you know who he is. I follow a lot about from him because last of human freedoms is the way you're going to respond to anything. So it goes back. You can resist it. You can say I don't want to get involved like I'm scared or you can choose to say actually I need to understand everything about it.

There is so much there's so much free stuff online. There's stuff that you can pay for. Um I choose to pay for my subscriptions to stuff because I want the pro versions and I want to learn myself. Um so I think everyone has that responsibility in life, right? It's the same with anything in life.

Like you choose on how you respond to a situation rather than life happens to you. I'd rather be the driver of every aspect of my life. my relationships, my work, AI, you know. >> Yeah, I think that you know there is some for example someone is in their organization where they're not like using AI or it's not encouraged by the company like what I would say to them is why don't you try to use it in your own like personal life. Um and like I see so many examples with uh you know members of like my family where my dad is constantly using you know voice mode for just like so many use cases.

Um and thinking about like oh like this is a I don't know grocery shopping let's say this is a process I do manually is there a way that like I can get Claude Code to do it for me? Um and uh yeah it comes back to that like feeling like you are the owner of you know of your own journey right >> I started using it before it was like even spoken about in organizations because I'd heard it and I like what is this thing and I was so curious about it and then you have to decide too like you know people are saying well people aren't as creative anymore because it writes all your emails and that but you have to drive that like I use it to my LinkedIn posts, not my whole LinkedIn post. I write it and then because I have ADHD and a bit of dyslexia, I make a lot of mistakes, grammar. So, it was like I would get someone to check it all the time. So, instead I get, you know, but then I'll say, "No, I want Cali style.

" And you have to change it back, you know? So, you've got control of it. I I also used to write a lot of poems. Like that was my favorite thing and it would take me a while, but I loved it for friends birthdays, give speeches. I could put it into to Claude and it could give me a great poem just but I can put in all the details but I don't want to do that because I still want to use my creativity.

So you again have control over that, right? Like you have control. I wouldn't say, hey, just like I can tell when people are writing me constant LinkedIn messages and posts that are all through to to to you know a an AI tool, but I I craft it and then ask them to maybe streamline or make it more concise and then but sometimes I go back about 50 times like you're not getting it right like this is what I need. Actually, this is not my voice, you know, my voice. I'm an Aussie and I speak directly and you know and so it's almost like you're you're constantly getting to the version you want and it's more like a grammar thing for me I say >> yeah I think there's um there's a balance but I think is you know especially in when we think about creative jobs it feels like you know a lot of people are almost outsourcing their creativity to AI and I wonder like where's that balance between having the ownership over idea or you know having that idea be almost owned by AI.

What what do you think about that? >> Yeah, I think for me like I want ownership of my creative ideas and I want them to enhance it. Other people want to outsource the whole thing, you know, and sometimes like you you see a lot on LinkedIn these days like I'm tired of like LinkedIn replies automatic, you know, through AI and and things like that. Like if you're annoyed by it, don't read it. like I I don't want to get upset by people's posts or again choose what what you want to affect you.

So I I think it's up to the individual like I'm not going to tell you where you should use AI and and or or not. I know to get the best out of me. I am a creative person so I want my ideas. I just want them a bit more polished sometimes. Or maybe I don't maybe I read and go actually no I can't do this.

I'm going to go back to my own. But I know there are a lot of jobs like for like I know there was roles like heads I remember I had a role once at Deutsche Bank. It didn't last long in that role because they wanted me as head of PowerPoint presentations for the XGO like the worst role for me ever. I never forget this and they're like Kelly but you're working with all the exco and I'm like I don't care like I'm more talent people but it would take me so long to do a PowerPoint presentation like you know but some there are jobs like that but now I suppose those jobs have changed a bit because I could do my you know PowerPoint presentations all on AI and I love it. It's like that for me is like incredible.

Um, and I did one recently, but we had to go back and perfect it and change it and change different things and do our own diagrams. But yeah, AI can make logos and and and and do a lot of things for you, you know, but my sister-in-law is a graphic designer and she still designs stuff for me, too. But >> yeah, I think there's just different versions of it. you know you worked with a lot of companies and also worked in a lot of companies where you're building the the company culture or you're a part of that and when AI start changing you know how people do work do their tasks do their role what do leaders need to you know keep in mind in order to make sure that you know they that culture is is still there the one that they want you still need to connect with people you still need to talk to people. You need to hold people accountable.

Um, you need to help. Yeah. Giving learning opportunities. Like again, it goes back to empowerment and being honest. I would never outsource that to AI.

You know what I mean? Like there's a lot of stuff where training is delivered by AI. You know, interviews are done all by AI. Like I think you can do aspects of it, but you still need the human element of checking in and and talking and team meetings and or one-on ones like how often you want to do them is is depends on that individual. So I don't think I I think this you still need to help drive the account um the culture on the behaviors that you do tolerate and those that you don't and that can't be outsourced to AI.

You know, >> we're not firing the managers yet. >> No, I don't Well, I don't think so. Maybe some companies will. maybe their whole, you know, their whole managers will be robots or, you know, like I don't know, everyone's different, right? That that wouldn't be for me because I love um I love that connection.

But you know they they were talking about actually at the panel that a lot of the roles that are available that they need are in carers and things like that but people don't want to do them because sometimes it's not paying well or you know from a a status point of view where I've actually as I've grown and you know as I'm getting older I love those type of roles that I maybe didn't want to do beforehand like the caring and being with people and and things like that like that gives me a lot in my life. Yeah, it's I think that you know like future of roles is like such a big thing and >> like I I do think there are roles right now which are not going to you know are not going to be in the some of them will not change but then some of them will not exist and you know that's >> and and you have to be you have to acknowledge that like they're not going to exist so what am I going to do to upskill or or or change in my way you know. >> Yeah. And what like um tools or workflows have you adopted in in your work and in your life um that you know really changed um you know changed the game for you. Let's call it that.

>> Definitely Claudeco and Perplexity has changed everything. Glean changed a bit in our organization because you could search for stuff but there's AI built into everything. ATS, you know, engagement tools, payroll, um, banking, like it's it's everywhere. But what's changed for me in my life is complexity claude co >> how how do you use them? >> H, a lot for for writing presentation, spreadsheets.

While I was writing interview notes, I I my my writing is so terrible. I couldn't understand anything. People would say, Kelly, what are you saying? But I learned to write straight in was while I was interviewing candidates and then I could put in the best summaries ever, you know, like it JD's, you know, benchmarking data, everything could could be used with AI these days. Leadership training in development, like I would build it, but I don't I'm not one for big like PowerPoint presentations for leadership training.

I'm about conversations, you know. But yeah, there's so much, you know, it helped me be a lot quicker in in getting stuff right. Like, >> have you tried like Whisper Flow or any of those where you can say what you want and uh it helps you with like writing it down actually? >> No. >> It's It's really good.

>> Okay, I've got to try that one. especially like um if you are someone that struggles with like uh writing like the correct kind of the spelling of the words the and people also speak so much quicker than they are able to write down so once you try it you're like oh I'm not typing this >> no I'm not typing it anymore oh I have used versions of that to be to be really fair yeah where yeah but I can use that on co claude and that as well like all I do is just the the voice mo. Yeah. Sorry. I use it all the time.

>> That is good. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's And they can interpret me because I'm one to leave voicemails. If anyone knows me, I leave a voicemail on WhatsApp because I make so many spelling mistakes and no one understands what I'm saying.

Like even my parents are like, "Kelly, what are you trying to tell me?" And so it's perfect. But even images, I even did a vision board the other day. I created my own ages ago. And then, you know, sometimes we've done stuff in in in workshops and things like that.

And I I did it using AI. It was great. >> I have like friends who either they love or hate a voice message. I never I never see people that are in between. Oh, it's okay.

No, it's either like, oh, this is all I use or I absolutely hate using it. And uh when I when I moved to Spain for a year, everyone there would use voice messages to that point where they would use it in a like a group chat, which I thought was wild. be especially the Spanish would do. It goes on cultures, too, doesn't it? >> Yeah.

Yeah. But it's uh I I love them. So, >> I'll leave you some. But everyone knows that I'm going to leave. Like my CEOs are always like, "Kelly, we love it.

We love a Kelly voice." But I I think I press on and it doesn't record at the beginning. So, they always miss the start and they're like, "Kelly, who are you talking about? What are you talking about?" So, yeah.

I It's It's a life changer for me, too. >> That's awesome. >> Yeah. And when we you know like recently I I saw this uh research which showed that women are adopting AI at 25% lower rate than men. Uh what what is your read on that from a lens of someone who who studied psychology?

Uh why is there not a bigger adoption among women? >> Yeah, I don't think it's a capability gap at all as we've seen. maybe just more of a scarcity gap or less people being part of the initial conversations or different priorities at the moment, but you know, a lot of the women I know are using it all the time. So, yeah, it depends on what roles they play, maybe um maybe not in the right conversations at the the right times, you know, there's less. Yeah, >> I think it really depends on the kind of community that you're in because um you know it's like you will have community around you and everyone will use it and then you know there are those I think silos um in between like different people who um who want to use it >> and where they're located cultures what they're doing like it all depends on so many different factors right >> what would you say to someone like I I hear the news about you know a new AI tool being uh coming out every like every other day.

How how do you deal with that with the you know that train constantly moving and having to like keep up with it? I think like again it goes back to your mindset and behaviors and what you can control. Don't get overwhelmed. Like I don't look at every single tool come because I see it all this you need to do this class and you need to do this and that. Like do your own research.

you know, listen to referrals. You've just given me one today. And do what you can do, you know, like, you know, and and I think that's the most important like research what is out there. Go beyond chat GTP because I think there's so many other different things. But AI, I think, because it is used so much.

It's in so much of our life already, right? like AI in maybe on on your Netflix or your Instagram or whatever you're using the AI is built into that. So I think you know spend like everyone is different. Some people might want to spend 15 minutes a day. Some people may be half an hour.

You probably three or four hours a day. Like it depends on what your passion is. But find out like what interests you. You know there's AI in videos if you want to be a podcast you know um podcast like look at the different tools that are using for AI. I use it for you know HR.

I'll be looking at AI and HR to to to see or in my creative fields that I'm doing. >> Yeah. And when I think about like your journey, you worked with a number of of like really large companies and then you uh have you know started your your own company. What made you to decide that kind of like leap to to go on your own? I think just sometimes being aligned to to to what I want in life too.

Like I've had quite a few incredible opportunities that have come my way just by being real and staying still for a bit. Like I always think I need to chase a big next big thing, next big title, next big organization, who do I want to work with? like the big names and then I realized I need to sit in the reality of what what fuels my soul at the moment and I feel like I've been given opportunities that not that I like anyone that knows me would go so you Kelly like my passion is like I love travel traveled over 100 countries I I love people that are making a difference I'm very big into healthcare education like I've been in fintech and things like that I just want to help people But who knows? I, you know, I'm interviewing for companies at the moment. I could go join another one if if it is aligned to what I want.

And I always have a lot on the side at the moment. And and so I feel like that people need to do what is aligned to them all the time. And and take a risk, you know, know that you may fail. know that you may fail five million times, you know, like I did a bit of work and then I was like actually I wanted to go back into being a team. Like I do miss that teamwork and I think that's really important for me.

And so I think it's about being fluid and open to those opportunities, right? And I think they say so many people say these days that you know some people believe that the 9 to5 is over and that you know at the moment for the last year like I've been traveling I'm on so many different projects and I love my life at the moment you know and but I'll always love my life because I want I've always wanted to create a life that I didn't need a holiday from. So, I'm passionate about what I do, whether it is in a corporate, a startup, you know, a nonforprofit, or I'm doing my own thing with my projects. I I really believe that I'm just aligning to to to myself. >> Yeah.

And what what did you see as like the biggest thing that you've learned while like because you're now a you have you're the founder of of your company versus something that you wouldn't have been able to learn working for someone else for me because I'm not in sales. You have to do your own business development and things like that which is different. But I don't really I think a lot of my work has come with referrals or a casual conversation or you meet someone and said you you should meet this person and and things like that. So I think I think that the unknown like you don't know you know paychecks you know you might get huge amount for one project something else could come along and then you might not have anything and you've got to sit on the you know the discomfort of that of not knowing when your next paycheck is is coming or you're going to get a big one and then nothing for a while. Um, also with someone with ADHD, like to keep motivated all the time too, like self-discipline, which I do believe I have because I'm the, you know, I go to the gym a few times a day and you know, um, but I can get sidetracked by stuff and yeah, focus on the stuff that I love rather than the admin stuff.

Like I'm not good. I don't really enjoy the admin side of everything. >> Yeah. and how you know when it comes to AI education I feel like it has to be a constant thing that you're doing because the the tools you don't have to you know keep up with every tool but you have to be continuously finding out like what is new how can I use it to you know to my advantage to improve my productivity uh but how do you keep yourself you know kind of disciplined to to to do that and to invest in like educ education in that way. >> I think again like it goes back to mindset.

You either have to like if you know that you're not disciplined in those ways, you need to set yourself a target each day or whatever. Everyone's disciplined in each in each way. like I believe that I am self-disciplined in a lot like you know in and I think that comes from you know healthy eating and and and and gym and and everything I want in life like you have to go do it yourself like there's support around you but I think it is also using your support system like you know I'm having a bad day I'm not really focused today and giving yourself a bit of grace for that like sometimes I feel like oh my god I haven't done anything today, you know, I've just been to the gym. I've done a few things, reached out to a few people, and that's okay, too. Like, you know, to to have that rest in between.

But I think I think those things do come from within like, you know, I'm listening to podcasts at the moment that are getting me into that mindset, you know, that's the honest truth, you know, and I think you can go off track for a while and and you can wallow in something that doesn't work out. And if something fails, like you've got to get back and start, you know, you got to you got to get back and do it again, you know. >> Yeah. I think um uh I was I was just telling uh you uh when we first met that um I had I completed 100 pilate sessions. >> Yes.

Oh, so proud >> being I'm very proud of myself really doing that. But you know I did find it I mean the reason why I like started um and go to these sessions is also because like once it is scheduled you like you just go and you can't cancel it 12 uh hours before. So >> yeah we should pay right >> or you have to pay. Yeah. So you know the the additional £10 that you have to pay actually really help with your discipline.

Um so you know maybe uh that's the that's the push that some people need to like um you know >> the money in the jar if you don't do something that you say yeah there are different con I used to do I can't have this unless I finish that couldn't watch this TV show or you know can't go to yeah whatever it is so yeah I think a lot of people like you do have self-discipline but I've I've got self-discipline but I've got a lot of friends goal I don't know how you do it like you know you're so disciplined But yeah, I I constantly want to learn. Like I constantly my whole life is being out of my comfort zone. Like if you think of even when I first traveled, I was so scared to go by myself. I cried. I said, "Dad, what happens if my friends don't meet me?

" It was to the Greek islands. I'm Australian, so it was far away. It's not like a 4-hour trip. And then I'm like, what's the worst that can happen? And now, like, I've been Africa, South America, all over Europe, like Central America, all by myself.

And even recently I did it again. My my comfort zone is is is a lot bigger now because you know I I keep on doing stuff that pushes me the next level you know >> and uh you you've traveled to 100 countries which is wild. Uh when I think about it, what you know what what that experience allowed you to um understand more like about people about cultures and also as we go into the future uh how AI is going to change that like that future. >> Mhm. >> I think everyone is different, right?

There are so many different cultures. is it gives me greater understanding in the world of of different people um different religions um different circumstances to be resilient. Not everything is going to go your way. You're not going to understand certain things. There's different ways that some people may be shocked that you behave in a certain way or you can't do something in in different cultures.

Some cultures are dangerous, you know, like there are, you know, I've been in situations where, you know, it's dangerous sometimes. You know, wars have broken out. I've had that uprisings. Um, you have to stay confident in who you are. You have to have your wits about you.

You have to sense the situation and if it's not comfortable, get out. Um, I still believe gener generosity and kindness, like being open to every single conversation. Um, like some people are like, "You're so trusting. You're so nice to people." But I love like I love every conversation I have.

And yeah, it's taught me to stand up on my own. Like I'm okay going to I'm I'm okay traveling by myself. And obviously I'm okay having a meal by myself or going and I've had the most amazing connections. I've got friends all over the world now, you know, and experiences that you could never ever buy. Like my whole life is experiences.

I I'm not I'm not big on things like I don't need a big house or car or things like that. I feel like I'm rich with experiences. So AI will never replace all of that. It might make things easier for like travel and banking. Like when I traveled, we didn't have a phone.

Like if I got lost, I was lost all day. There's no I rang my parents reverse charges and cost them a fortune from Australia. I remember from Europe or things like that. Like you know, and I love those days, you I think everyone's on their phones taking selfies and this and that and it's changed the way from from from where I used to travel and um Bali has changed. I used to go I went to Bali you know 30 years ago there was nothing there you know what I mean no yeah hardly any hotels or anything so I feel blessed for some of the experiences and I want to still try to go and I don't think AI can change that but like I said AI changes that the way you you travel you book hotels you can you know I had to go and knock on doors to find places to stay or order food if you arrive late or you Yeah, different things, you know, >> one of those.

Yeah. you know when you think about the future uh what do you think um the organizations and individuals like who's going to come out of the uh AI change uh stronger and what do they think they will do differently to people that want >> be open be curious embrace it a good change management you need change you need to people along the journey with everything and if if you leave your people behind in an organization I don't think they're going to come out as strong offer it up for people like you know offer pro licenses include it in your tooling when you're onboarding include it in your induction program like have challenges around AI and what you can do to better improve whether it's people processes or processes within the organization operations, engineering, finance >> in let's say 5 years um you know you you have worked in um on creating places that are genuinely loved by employees. I think one of the places that you worked in it was best place to work wasn't it >> most loved workplace. Um, what does a most loved workplace look like in 5 years time in a world where AI? Well, I imagine it will be embedded in everything that you know we touch and interact with.

So, making sure that your jobs are enriching and they're empowering and that you're doing great work and having AI make your job more enriching in some way, you know, to to that that's and and I think still like, you know, the the connection, the honesty, the transparency um is still just as important like where people can be themselves and they're empowered to to do work to to to learn and to grow and and develop in different ways. >> Yeah. No, 100%. Um, is there anything that I haven't asked you that you would like to uh talk about or >> what is your favorite AI tool that you're using at the moment? So Claude Code I um so there's you can use it on your desktop through the you can use it through browser or you can install it on the computer but when you use it with uh this app like anti-gravity it's absolutely amazing because then you can have like 10 windows open and you can do different queries and it will be able to do all of these projects at the same time.

So it feels like you're just like it feels like you have that superpower where you just you know give that task and then another one another one another one and then you just go back to window number one and see okay this is uh this is done. Um, so I yeah, I love that. Uh, the fact that with clothes code as well, you can um you can like create a presentation, which is something that you said you worked on in your own like brand colors as well. Uh, which to me is Yeah. It's it's wild that it can do that.

>> Yeah. and and then just the imagery and you know the the logos, the photos like you know films everything it is cra you know it's amazing like so that's why I tell people like just you know if my 76 year old parents can use AI they're using it for so much and they're asking me what do you think of this and you know and anyone can like honestly >> so um let's do a fast round. >> Okay. >> Um, >> so what's uh one thing that AI will never replace about a great people leader? >> I think compassion and empathy, understanding and just deep connection.

Um, what's a sign that a company has a healthy culture? Um, like you know, you you walk into the company and you're like, "Oh, yeah, they they have like great culture." >> That I can be myself and not judge for that. Like, yeah, that's for me, you know, and that I can be honest and truthful and not cut down. >> Um, what's a place you haven't traveled to and you would love to travel to?

>> Madagascar. >> Oh, wow. >> Yeah. And what's your um what's your favorite place you've traveled to? >> That's a hard one because there's so many.

>> This is your top three. >> Brazil. >> Okay. >> I love Brazil. That was one of my favorite places.

I love Tanzania. >> Um Italy is our favorite we go. And Iceland. Oh my god, Iceland is beautiful. >> That's amazing.

Yeah, I' I've been to Italy out of those four you mentioned. So there's >> a few more. They're still on my list. Yeah. >> Sometimes I think I should just, you know, maybe do travel agent.

Someone was asking me the other day if I could help her daughter cuz she wants to go to Europe by herself and so many people come to me. So, yeah, enable women to travel alone. >> That's amazing. Um, so if uh if someone wanted to, you know, get in touch with you and and get your help, uh how how should they do that? Oh, >> yeah.

They can just contact me on LinkedIn. Cal Hartman. Kelly Hartman that LinkedIn. >> Well, we'll put your link in the >> Yeah, for sure. >> Well, thank you so much and yeah, it was it was great talking to you.

>> Yeah, it was so beautiful. Thank you for having me on your podcast. >> Before you go, one thing. If today's episode sparks something for you and you want to take that further, Women Lead AI runs a monthly AI learning lab where we go hands-on with tools, trends, and real use cases together as a community. There's no jargon, no gatekeeping, just women helping each other get generally good at AI.

Link is in the show notes and see you next time.