The 9-to-5 is Changing: How to Become the CEO of Your Career with AI

My guest today has built people functions in over 30 countries, scaled five companies from the ground up, helped raise over 200 million in funding, and taken a company all the way to the NASDAQ. She has done all of this not as a founder, not as a CEO, but as the person that founders and CEOs quietly rely on more than anyone else in the building. She is a psychologist, an executive coach, and someone who has spent 25 years sitting with people at their most honest, in the moments that actually define a company's culture. She has won global awards for mental health strategy, built workplaces that rank among the most loved in the world, and traveled to over 100 countries. She know around her own consultancy and coaches some of the most senior leaders in tech.

Kelly Hartman, welcome to Womenlead AI. So Kelly, welcome to Womenlead AI podcast. Thank you so much for your time and for coming on here. Really excited. Yeah, of course.

Me too. You're a psychologist by training and you spent like the past 25 years inside various organizations watching how people respond to change. I would say probably AI is the biggest change that is happening right now. What does your psychology background tell you about why so many people are resisting that change? So I think it's really important to know and I have this whole philosophy that there's no one-size-fits-all.

So there are a lot of people resisting it, but there are also a lot of people embracing that. And I think that's really important to know because irrespective of your age, your gender, where you are in the world, what role you play in the organization, you are going to get different types of approaches and how people respond to this. Why I think in just from a psychological or even just a human point of view, people resist change when it's unknown to them. When people are afraid of the unknown, it's different. Even in life, people like sometimes their comforts, they like to have a routine and this throws everything out.

So I think one of it is the unknown. I think another aspect is that they're seeing in the media that people are losing jobs. And maybe part of that is because of AI, but I don't really believe that completely. I believe part of it is people just have overspent on headcount or that they're getting rid of underperformers, not saying that everyone that, you know, I want to put that as a big caveat. If someone is exited from an organization, they've used AI as the reason why.

I'm not saying everyone's underperformed, but sometimes those departments maybe are not needed or they've overspent and things like that. So I think the fear of the unknown, I think what the media and especially social media, which is at our fingertips these days and you see all the headlines, 10,000 people lose jobs because of AI. And I think that scares a lot of people, right? Yeah, I think I did hear on another podcast where they were saying like, actually a lot of companies, you know, they hired so many people during COVID and now they don't need them anymore and kind of normal sort of economy. So they're just using AI as this kind of thing that they can put a blame on and yeah, a lot of it comes from that.

I was at also a panel the other day, it was all on AI. It was really interesting and you had people, CPOs, you also had like board members of the AI governance in finance and just people from, you know, broadcasting studios and just CEOs and, you know, the conversation was had like and I think that is scaring people the most, you know? What was the, do you want to tell me more about the, it was a conference? It was like a, no, it was a panel. And yeah, it was a panel and it was, I really enjoyed it.

Like, you know, I think there was diverse views. There were some people that think it's all hype and there were others that don't and that actually believe that, you know, we've got an embraces. You know, same as many things that, you know, I came from the age when we, you know, computers came later. Like, you know, we didn't grow up with computers. We didn't have phones at our fingertips.

I think I'm seeing a lot on the Instagram like reels about what it was like growing up in the 80s and 90s. That's me, you know? And so we didn't have all of that at our fingertips. But I think, you know, even my father who's 76, like he asked me to do stuff with AI, like more of the, you know, perplexity or Claude and things like that. Because I've traveled so much and my whole life has been out of my comfort zone, getting up and living across the different sides of the world.

Like I'm one of those that is curious and will try. I am not great in tech. Like tech isn't my, you know, but it helps me do my job so much easier. So I think those that embrace it and are curious and want to learn what it's about, will use it and utilize it. And others are more afraid and won't even try different things.

And so a lot of it is a mindset and a lot of it is, is, and I really believe a lot is mindset. Yeah, I 100% agree. And I think when we think about like any technology coming on onto the market, you know, you can be in the camp of like, oh, like this is going to destroy jobs, like it's, it's, you know, all doom and gloom. And then, or you can be in the camp, like, oh, this is the biggest opportunity that, you know, has ever been in my lifetime. Like, I'm going to find a way to make use of it.

So, you know, and the doom and gloom, like it doesn't help you, I don't think it helps you in any way. So if you embrace it and, you know, if let's say you are the, you know, the best person that knows this particular thing, like you can really position yourself as like an expert. So of course, and you can learn and you can grow yourself. And I think inherent in my nature, I'm not a doom and gloom person. I've always been maybe overly optimistic.

I know I mentioned to you before that I'm listening to a lot of Derek Grant at the moment, which is things come within you, like you, you know, and I'm very much that we're accountable for everything that happens in our life, bad or good, right? Like if I take accountability for things, even the shitty stuff that goes wrong in my life, I'm free. I'm more powerful in that. And I think the same is with AI, right? You know, when I first heard of it, I was like, so curious, what is this?

You know, it started with chat GPT originally, but I've also like perplexity. I've had Claude for a while, like, and then AI, I mean, we were using AI in so many different ways and machine learning and data science and, you know, and I see it as an opportunity. Like for me, I just did a big proposal for a broadcasting studio for a TV series, like straight out, not it's not inherent in my CPRL, but I'm also a creative like I'm working for a major rap artist at the moment. And in the proposal I was doing with his organization, I used Claude to help me put a presentation together that would have taken me weeks because it's so fiddly and I can't put stuff together and design work and videos and it made my life easier so I could get creative about what I want to do. And if people see it as actually, it's going to make my life more enriching and I'm going to outsource some of the stuff that I didn't love.

My boyfriend, he codes, right? He also runs implementations for big companies and, you know, I talked to him and I'm like, customers still want a from person to talk to them through implementation and changes, but he's learning different things on the weekends to help skill him up on how to utilize the AI better, right? So yeah, you might not need the same type of engineering, it may change, but you need to be able to change with that or find something else that you really want to do. So let's say that, you know, someone is, they have like quite a big company, they, you know, they hire the employee about 70, 80 people and they're like, okay, we have chat to be able to employees, but you know, how do we actually like, how do we actually implement AI into like our operations? And like, what mistakes do you see companies do as well while they go for that change?

So I think being really honest about things, about what you're using AI for, like challenging people to see how they can use AI to make their jobs more enriching or faster or do different things like to outsource the work that, you know, actually it's taking you so much time to do. So I think being open, having a strategy around it to bringing people along with it and going through a change management process, like, you know, we started, well, the engineering was using a different type of AI than we were, you know, for some of their work. As an organisation, we use Glean across the organisation and we had workshops with everyone that was invited and then it started off with the senior leaders first and the exec and then the people leaders and then bringing everyone on the journey. And I think that's some mistakes that I hear people aren't making, you know, like people are bringing in in too late or they're not encouraging that or they're not having AI as part of their whole strategy. So each department at our previous organisation spoke to, you know, an expert in AI to see how we could better use AI in our functions.

And that means people are brought along that journey and then you're not scared of it because we're encouraged to use it. And I think that's you've got to be transparent about that. And how do you think how much responsibility lies on the leadership team to drive this versus employees wanting to, you know, trying to drive the change and implementing it into their like processes? I think a lot has to rest with you as an individual, like we're in charge of our own careers. I run a program being the CEO of your career and that is, I've been running that for 20, 25 years in different various ways, but you're in control at the end of the day.

Like I can't blame my organisation because I have an upskilled or I'm not learning or I'm not curious. Like you've got to have the grit, the ownership that, you know, goes back to ownership accountability. So yes, it's a responsibility for leadership, but I'm not going to outsource that responsibility ever. Like I'm in charge of my own career. I'm in charge of my growth, my learning.

And I think my big thing is a mindset, circle of influence, circle of control. AI is here, right? Like your last of human freedom, which is Victor Frankel, I don't know if you know who he is. I follow a lot from him because last of human freedoms is the way you're going to respond to anything. So it goes back, you can resist it, you can say, I don't want to get involved, like I'm scared, or you can choose to say, actually, I need to understand everything about it.

There are so much, there's so much free stuff online, there's stuff that you can pay for. I choose to pay for my subscriptions to stuff because I want the pro versions and I want to learn myself. So I think everyone has that responsibility in life, right? It's the same with anything in life, like you choose on how you respond to a situation. Rather than life happens to you, I'd rather be the driver of every aspect of my life, my relationships, my work, AI, you know?

Yeah, I think, you know, there is some, for example, someone is in their organization where they're not like using AI or it's not encouraged by the company. Like what I would say to them is why don't you try to use it in your own personal life? I see so many examples with members of my family where my dad is constantly using voice mode for just so many use cases and thinking about like, oh, this is, I don't know, grocery shopping, let's say, this is a process I do manually. Is there a way that like I can get Claude Cote to do it for me? And yeah, it comes back to that like feeling like you are the owner of your own journey, right?

I started using it before it was like even spoken about in organizations because I'd heard it and I was like, what is this thing? And I was so curious about it. And then you have to decide to like, you know, people are saying, well, people aren't as creative anymore because it writes all your emails and that but you have to drive that. Like I use it to write LinkedIn posts, not my whole LinkedIn post, I write it. And then because I have ADHD and a bit of dyslexia, I make a lot of mistakes, grammar.

So it was like, I would get someone to check it all the time. So instead I get, you know, but then I'll say, no, I want Kelly's stuff and you have to change it back, you know, so you've got control of it. I also used to write a lot of poems like that was my favorite thing and it would take me a while but I loved it for friends, birthdays, give speeches. I could put it into to Claude and it could give me a great poem just but I can put in all the details, but I don't want to do that because I still want to use my creativity. So you again have control over that, right?

Like you have control. I wouldn't say, hey, just like I can tell when people are writing me constant LinkedIn messages and posts that are all through to, you know, an AI tool but I craft it and then ask them to maybe streamline or make it more concise and then, but sometimes I go back about 50 times, like, you're not getting it right. Like this is what I need. Actually, this is not my voice. You know my voice.

I'm an Aussie and I speak directly and, you know, and so it's almost like you're, you're constantly getting to the version you want and it's more like a grammar thing for me, I say. Yeah, I think there is a balance but I think is, you know, especially when we think about creative jobs, it feels like, you know, a lot of people are almost outsourcing their creativity to AI and I wonder, like, where is that balance between having the ownership over idea or, you know, having that idea be almost owned by AI? What do you think about that? Yeah, I think for me, like I want ownership of my creative ideas and I want them to enhance it. Other people want to outsource the whole thing, you know, and sometimes you see a lot on LinkedIn these days, like, I'm tired of, like, LinkedIn replies automatic, you know, through AI and things like that.

Like, if you're annoyed by it, don't read it. Like, I don't want to get upset by people's posts or, again, choose what you want to affect you. So I think it's up to the individual. Like, I'm not going to tell you where you should use AI or not. I know to get the best out of me.

I am a creative person, so I want my ideas. I just want them a bit more polished sometimes. Or maybe I don't. Maybe I read and go, actually, nah, I can't do this. I'm going to go back to my own.

But I know there are a lot of jobs. Like, for like, I know there was roles like heads. I remember I had a role once at Deutsche Bank. It didn't last long in that role because they wanted me as the head of PowerPoint presentations for the XCO, like the worst role for me ever. I'd never forget this.

And they're like, Kelly, but you're working with all the XCO and I'm like, I don't care. Like, I'm more talent people. But it would take me so long to do a PowerPoint presentation. Like, you know, but some there are jobs like that. But now, I suppose those jobs have changed a bit because I could do my, you know, PowerPoint presentations all on AI.

And I love it. It's like that for me is like incredible. And I did one recently, but we had to go back and perfect it and change it and change different things and do our own diagrams. But yeah, I can make logos and do a lot of things for you, you know. But my sister-in-law is a graphic designer and she still designed stuff for me too.

But yeah, I think there's just different versions of it. You know, you worked with a lot of companies and also worked in a lot of companies where you're building the company culture or you're a part of that. And when AI starts changing, you know, how people do work, do their tasks, do their role, what do leaders need to, you know, keep in mind in order to make sure that, you know, that culture is still there, the one that they want. You still need to connect with people. You still need to talk to people.

You need to hold people accountable. You need to help, yeah, giving learning opportunities. Like again, it goes back to empowerment and being honest. I would never outsource that to AI. You know what I mean?

Like there's a lot of stuff where training is delivered by AI. You know, interviews are done all by AI. Like I think you can do aspects of it, but you still need the human element of checking in and talking and team meetings and or one-on-ones. Like how often you want to do them depends on that individual. So I don't think, I think this, you still need to help drive the culture on the behaviors that you do tolerate and those that you don't and that can't be outsourced to AI, you know?

We're not firing the managers yet. No, I don't think so. Maybe some companies will. Maybe their whole, you know, their whole managers will be robots or, you know, like, I don't know, everyone's different, right? That wouldn't be for me because I love I love that connection.

But, you know, they were talking about actually at the panel that a lot of the roles that are available that they need are in carers and things like that, but people don't want to do them because sometimes it's not paying well or, you know, from a status point of view where I've actually, as I've grown and, you know, as I'm getting older, I love those type of roles that I maybe didn't want to do beforehand, like the caring and being with people and things like that. Like that gives me a lot in my life. Yeah, it's, I think that, you know, like future of roles is like such a big thing and yeah, like I do think there are roles right now, which I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going to be in the some of them will not change, but then some of them will not exist. And, you know, that's And you have to be, you've acknowledged that, like they're not going to exist. So what am I going to do to upskill or change in my way?

You know? Yeah. And what, like, tools or workflows have you adopted in your work and in your life that, you know, really changed, you know, changed the game for you. Let's call it. Definitely.

Claude co and perplexity has changed everything. Glean changed a bit in our organization because you could search for stuff, but there's AI built into everything. HTS, you know, engagement tools, payroll, banking, like it's, it's everywhere, but what's changed for me in my life is perplexity, Claude, Claude. How do you use them? A lot for writing presentations, spreadsheets.

While I was writing interview notes, I, my, my writing is so terrible. I couldn't understand anything. People would say, Kelly, what do you say? But I learned to write straight in was while I was interviewing candidates. And then I could put in the best summaries ever, you know, like it JD's, you know, benchmarking data, everything could, could be used with AI these days.

Leadership training in development, like I would build it, but I don't, I'm not one for big, like PowerPoint presentations for leadership training. I'm about conversations, you know, but yeah, there's so much, you know, it helped me be a lot quicker in getting stuff right. Like, have you tried like whisper flow or any of those where you can say what you want and it helps you with like writing it down, actually. No. It's really good.

Okay, I've got to try that one. Especially like if you are someone that struggles with like writing like the correct kind of the spelling of the words. And people also speak so much quicker than they are able to write down. So once you try it, you're like, oh, I'm not typing this. No, I'm not typing it anymore.

Oh, I have used versions of that to be, to be really fair. Yeah. Yeah. But I can use that on Claude and that as well. Like all I do is just the voice mode.

Yeah. Sorry. I use it all the time. That is good. Yeah.

And that can interpret me because I'm one to leave voicemails. If anyone knows me, I'll leave a voicemail on WhatsApp because I make so many spelling mistakes and no one understands what I'm saying. Like even my parents like Kelly, what are you trying to tell me? And so it's perfect. But even images, I even did a vision board the other day.

I'd created my own ages ago. And then, you know, sometimes we've done stuff in workshops and things like that. And I did it using AI. It was great. I have like friends who either they laugh or hate their voicemail switch.

I never see people that are in between, oh, it's okay. No, it's either like, oh, this is all I use or I absolutely hate using it. And when I when I moved to Spain for a year, everyone would use voice messages to that point where they would use it in a like a group chat, which I thought was wild. Especially the Spanish would do it. It goes on in cultures too, doesn't it?

Yeah. But it's, I love them. So I'll leave you some, but everyone knows that I'm going to leave. Like my CEOs are always like, Kelly, we love it. We love a Kelly voicemail.

But I, I think I press on and it doesn't record at the beginning. So they always miss a start. And they're like, Kelly, who are you talking about? What are you talking about? So yeah, I, it's a life changer for me too.

That's awesome. Yeah. And when we, you know, like recently I saw this research which showed that women are adopting AI at 25% lower rate than men. What, why is your read on that from a lens of someone who, who studies psychology? Why is there not a big adoption among women?

Yeah, I don't think it's a capability gap at all, as we've seen. Maybe just more of a scarcity gap or less people being part of the initial conversations or different priorities at the moment. But, you know, a lot of the women I know are using it all the time. So yeah, it depends on what roles they play, maybe, maybe not in the right conversations at the, at the right times, you know, there's less that, yeah. I think it really depends on the kind of community that you're in.

Because, you know, it's like you will have community around you and everyone will use it. And then, you know, there are those, I think silos in between like different people who, who want to use it. And where they're located, cultures, what they're doing, like it all depends on so many different factors, right? What would you say to someone like, I, I hear the news about, you know, a new AI tool being coming out every, like every other day. How, how do you deal with that with the, you know, that train constantly moving and having to like, keep up with it?

I think, like, again, it goes back to your mindset and behaviors and what you can control. Don't get overwhelmed. Like, I don't look at every single tool cut because I see it all this, you need to do this class and you need to do this and that, like, do your own research, you know, listen to referrals. You've just given me one today and do what you can do, you know, like, you know, and, and I think that's the most important, like research what is out there. Go beyond chat GTP because I think there's so many other different things.

But AI, I think, because it is used so much, it's in so much of our life already, right? Like AI in maybe on, on your Netflix or your Instagram or whatever you're using that AI is built into that. So I think, you know, spend like everyone is different. Some people might want to spend 15 minutes a day. Some people may be half an hour.

You probably three or four hours a day. Like, it depends on what your passion is. But find out, like, what interests you, you know, there's AI in videos, if you want to be a podcast, you know, podcast, like, look at the different tools that are using for AI. I use it for, you know, HR. I'll be looking at AI and HR to see or in my creative fields that I'm doing.

Yeah. And when I think about like your journey, you work with a number of like really large companies. And then you have, you know, started your own company. What made you to decide that kind of like leap to, to go on your own? I think just sometimes being aligned to, to, to what I want in life too, like I've had quite a few incredible opportunities that have come my way just by being real and saying still for a bit.

Like I always think I need to chase a big, next big thing, next big title, next big organization. Who do I want to work with? Like the big names. And then I realize I need to sit in the reality of what, what fuels my soul at the moment. And I feel like I've been given opportunities that not that I, like anyone that knows me would go so you Kelly.

Like my passion is, like I love travel, traveled over a hundred countries. I love people that are making a difference. I'm very big into healthcare, education, like I've been in fintech and things like that. I just want to help people. But who knows?

I, you know, I'm interviewing for companies at the moment. I could go join another one if, if it is aligned to what I want. And I always have a lot on the side at the moment. And, and so I feel like that people need to do what is aligned to them all the time and take a risk, you know, know that you may fail, know that you may fail five million times, you know, like I did a bit of work. And then I was like, actually, I wanted to go back into being a team.

Like I do miss that teamwork. And I think that's really important for me. And so I think it's about being fluid and open to those opportunities, right? And I think they say so many people say these days that, you know, some people believe that the nine to five is over. And that, you know, at the moment for last year, like I've been traveling on so many different projects and I love my life at the moment, you know, and, but I'll always love my life because I want, I've always wanted to create a life that I didn't need a holiday from.

So I'm passionate about what I do, whether it is in a corporate, a startup, you know, a non-for-profit, or I'm doing my own thing with my projects. I really believe that I'm just aligning to, to, to myself. Yeah. And what, what did you see as like the biggest thing that you've learned while, like, because you're now, you have, you're the founder of your company versus something that you wouldn't have been able to learn working for someone else. For me, because I'm not in sales, you have to do your own business development and things like that, which is different.

But I don't really, I think a lot of my work has come with referrals or a casual conversation, or you meet someone said you should meet this person and things like that. So I think, I think that the unknown, like you don't know, you know, paychecks, you know, you might get a huge amount for one project, something else could come along, and then you might not have anything. And you've got to sit on the, you know, the discomfort of that, of not knowing when your next paycheck is, is coming, or you're going to get a big one and then nothing for a while. Also be someone with ADHD, like, to keep motivated all the time too, like self-discipline, which I do believe I have because I'm the, you know, I go to the gym a few times a day and, you know, but I can get sidetracked by stuff. And yeah, focus on the stuff that I love rather than the admin stuff, like I'm not good.

I don't really enjoy the admin side of everything. Yeah. And how, you know, when it comes to AI education, I feel like it has to be a constant thing that you're doing because the tools, you don't have to, you know, keep up with every tool, but you have to be continuously finding out, like, what is new, how can I use it to, you know, to my advantage, to improve my productivity. But how do you keep yourself, you know, kind of disciplined to do that and to invest in, like, education in that way? I think, again, like, it goes back to mindset.

You either have to, like, if you know that you're not disciplined in those ways, you need to set yourself a target each day or whatever. Everyone's disciplined in each, in each way. Like, I believe that I am self-disciplined in a lot, like, you know, in, and I think that comes from, you know, healthy eating and, and, and gym and, and everything I want in life, like, you have to go do it yourself. Like, there's support around you. But I think it is also using your support system.

Like, you know, I'm having a bad day. I'm not really focused today. And giving yourself a bit of grace for that. Like, sometimes I feel like, oh my God, I haven't done anything today. You know, I've just been to the gym.

I've done a few things, reached out to a few people, and that's okay too. Like, you know, to, to have that rested in between. But I think, I think those things do come from within. Like, you know, I'm listening to podcasts at the moment that are getting me into that mindset, you know, that's the on the streak, you know, and I think you can go off track for a while in, and you can wallow in something that doesn't work out. And if something fails, like, you've got to get back and start, you know, you've got to, you've got to get back and do it again, you know.

Yeah, I think I was, I was just telling you when we first met that I had, I completed a hundred Pilato sessions. Yes. I'm so proud. I'm very proud of myself for doing that. But you know, I did find it, I mean, the reason why I like started and go to these sessions is also because like, once it is scheduled, you like, you just go and you can't cancel it 12 hours before.

So. Yeah, we should pay, right? Oh, you have to pay, yeah. So, you know, the additional 10 pounds that you have to pay actually really help with your discipline. So, you know, maybe that's the that's the push that some people need to like, you know, money in the jar, if you don't do something that you say, yeah, there are different ones I used to do.

I can't have this unless I finish that couldn't watch this TV show or, you know, can't go to, yeah, whatever it is. So, yeah, I think a lot of people, like you do have self-discipline, but I've, I've got self-discipline, but I've got a lot of friends go Cal. I don't know how you do it. Like, you know, you're so disciplined, but yeah, I constantly want to learn. Like, I constantly my whole life is being out of my comfort zone.

Like, if you think of even when I first traveled, I was so scared to go by myself. I cried. I said, Dad, what happens if my friends don't meet me? It was to the Greek islands. I'm Australian.

So, it was far away. It's not like a four-hour trip. And then I'm like, what's worse that can happen? And now, like, I've been Africa, South America all over Europe, like Central America, all by myself. And even recently, I did it again.

My comfort zone is a lot bigger now, because, you know, I keep on doing stuff that pushes me the next level, you know? And you've traveled to a hundred countries, which is wild. When I think about it, what, you know, what that experience allows you to understand more, like, about people, about cultures, and also as we go into the future, how AI is going to change that, like, that future. Mm-hmm. I think everyone is different, right?

There are so many different cultures. It gives me greater understanding in the world of different people, different religions, different circumstances to be resilient. Not everything is going to go your way. You're not going to understand certain things. There's different ways that some people may be shocked that you behave in a certain way, or you can't do something in, in different cultures.

Some cultures are dangerous, you know? Like, there are, you know, I've been in situations where, you know, it's dangerous. Sometimes, you know, walls have broken out. I've had that, uprisings. You have to stay confident in who you are.

You have to have your wits about you. You've to sense the situation, and if it's not comfortable, get out. I still believe generosity and kindness, like being open to every single conversation. Like, some people are like, you're so trusting, you're so nice to people, but I love, like, I love every conversation I have. And yeah, it's told me to stand up on my own.

Like, I'm okay going to, I'm okay traveling by myself, and obviously I'm okay having a meal by myself or going, and I've had the most amazing connections. I've got friends all over the world now, you know, and experiences that you could never, ever buy. Like, my whole life is experiences. I, I'm not, I'm not big on things. Like, I don't need a big house or car or things like that.

I feel like I'm rich with experiences. So AI will never replace all of that. It might make things easier for like, travel and banking. Like, when I traveled, we didn't have a phone. Like, if I got lost, I was lost all day.

There's no, I rang my parents' reverse charges and cost them a fortune from Australia, I remember, from Europe, all things like that. Like, you know, and I love those days, you know, I think everyone's on their phones taking selfies and this and that, and it's changed the way from, from, from where I used to travel. And Bali has changed. I used to go, I went to Bali, you know, 30 years ago, there was nothing there, you know what I mean? No, yeah, Hali, any hotels or anything.

So I feel blessed for some of the experiences and I want to still try to go. And I don't think AI can change that, but like I said, AI changes that the way you, you travel, you book hotels, you can, you know, I did go and knock on doors to find places to stay or order food if you arrive late or, you know, yeah, different things. One of those, yeah. You know, when you think about the future, what do you think the organizations and individuals like who's going to come out of the AI change stronger and what do they think they will do differently to people that want? Be open, be curious, embrace it, a good change management.

You need to bring people along the journey with everything. And if, if you leave your people behind in an organization, I don't think they're going to come out as strong, offer it up for people like, you know, offer pro licenses, including in your tooling when you're onboarding, including in your induction program, like have challenges around AI and what you can do to better improve whether it's people processes or processes within the organization, operations, engineering, finance. And let's say five years, you know, you, you have worked in on creating places that are genuinely loved by employees. I think one of the places that you worked in, it was the best place to work, wasn't it? Most loved workplace.

What does a most loved workplace look like in five years time in a work where AI, well, I imagine it will be embedded in everything that, you know, we touch and interact with. So making sure that your jobs are enriching and they're empowering and that you're doing great work and having AI make your job more enriching in some way, you know, to, to that, that's, and I think still like, you know, the, the connection, the honesty, the transparency is still just as important, like where people can be themselves and they're empowered to, to do work, to, to, to learn and to grow and develop in different ways. Yeah. No, 100%. Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you would like to talk about?

What is your favorite AI tool that you're using at the moment? So cloud code. I, so there's, you can use it on your desktop through the, you can use it through browser or you can install it on the computer. But when you use it with this app like Antigravity, it's absolutely amazing because then you can have like 10 windows open and you can do different queries and it will be able to do all of these projects at the same time. So it feels like you're just like, it feels like you have that superpower where you just, you know, give that task and then another one, another one, another one, and then you just go back to window number one and see, okay, this is, this is done.

So I, yeah, I love that. The fact that with cloud code as well, you can, you can like create a presentation, which is something that you said you worked on in your own like brand colors as well, which to me is, yeah, it's, it's wild, but it can do that. Yeah. And then just the imagery and, you know, the, the logos of photos, like, you know, films, everything, it is great, you know, it's amazing. Like, so that's why I tell people like just, you know, if my 76 year old parents can use AI, they're using it for so much and they're asking me, what do you think of this and, you know, and anyone can, like honestly.

So let's do a fast round. Okay. So what's the one thing that AI will never replace about a great people either? I think compassion and empathy understanding and just deep connection. What's the sign that a company has a healthy culture?

Like, you know, you walk into the company and you're like, oh yeah, they have like great culture. That I can be myself and not judge for that. Like, yeah, that's for me, you know, and then I can be honest and truthful and not cut down. When, what's a place you haven't traveled to and you would love to travel to? Madagascar.

Oh, wow. Yeah. And what's your, what's your favorite place you've traveled to? That's a hard one because there's so many. There's no top free.

Brazil. Okay. I love Brazil. That was one of my favorite places. I love Tanzania.

Italy is our favorite. We go and Iceland. Oh my god. Iceland is beautiful. That's amazing.

Yeah. I've been to Italy out of those four you mentioned. So there's still on my list. Yeah. Sometimes I think I should just, you know, maybe do travel agent.

Someone was asking me the other day if I could help her daughter because she wants to go to Europe by herself and so many people come to me. So yeah, enable women to travel alone. That's amazing. So if someone wanted to, you know, get in touch with you and get your help, how, how should I do that? Oh yeah, they can just contact me on LinkedIn.

Kell Hartman, Kelly Hartman at LinkedIn. Well, we'll put your link in there. Yeah, for sure. Well, thank you so much. And yeah, it was, it was great talking to you.

Yeah, it was so beautiful. Thank you for having me on your podcast. Before you go, one thing, if today's episode sparks something for you and you want to take that further, Women Lead AI runs a monthly AI learning lab where we go hands on with tools, trends and real use cases together as a community. There is no jargon, no gatekeeping, just women helping each other get generally good at AI. Link is in the show notes and see you next time.