"90% of People Who Say They'll Buy It, Won't": The Hardest Lesson in Startups I Women Lead AI

My guest today started her career in particle physics, winning a national competition to intern at CERN in Geneva at the age of 17. She graduated with a bachelor degree in physics from the University of Manchester. Then joined IBM as a data scientist where she worked on introducing AI across a number of sectors such as automotive, nuclear or government. In August 2025, she left IBM to co-ound Taillet, an AI powered styling and shopping assistant built on a single conviction that poor decision making drives over consumption and that AI can improve the decisions rather than fuel the [music] spending. Simona Dora, welcome to Women Lead AI.

So thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I would love to know uh firstly you studied particle physics at University of Manchester and then you did an internship at CERN and then you decided to um find to be a founder of your own company. How does someone with a physics background see things differently than people who uh a lot of founders usually have either a computer science background or um uh or business? Uh how how do you think uh you think differently about um about starting your own company and also like how you run it? I think it has less to do with the fact that I did physics.

I think a lot of the uh disciplines you mentioned like engineering, business, um and computer science, they all teach you the same thing which is about problem solving and really thinking a bit differently when it comes to problems because at the end of the day what a company is uh usually in itself it there is a problem to be solved. So once you have that attitude towards let me find a solution to something I'm seeing in my everyday life. Um then I think that's one of the core things you have to have uh as a founder specifically the physics side. I think I've always been very much an experimentalist. um one of my favorite things and even in uni I was the best at experimental physics and that was that was really seeing something how it works seeing what's the theory behind it how can I explain it how can I make the whole experiment better so it's the same in real life when you see how process are done even in companies even in my everyday life I look at it and I think okay how can I make this better why am I doing the things I'm doing or why is the company doing the things it's doing and then really then thinking okay let me think about a solution so definitely hasn't like the particle physics itself helped me I think that experience has definitely helped me in a way that um I can analyze a lot of data and I can see patterns in data and that helps once especially now when I have a company when you look into the insights from your customers when you look how they behave in your app in your product that that being able to analyze the data quickly, spot what's what's going on behind it, that is something maybe I learned uh in those internships.

Um that [clears throat] was really really useful. Um but I think it's the same as I said for many disciplines that that problem solving uh that problem solving base for me specifically also it having a company also um comes back to how much risk you can take and I think that's very personal attitude I don't think this you can learn in any discipline regardless you're physicist regardless your business um I think that's something you have to have your own tolerance towards because staying in your comfort zone regardless what you learned will never take you out to do something crazy like quit your job in mobile company. So let let's talk about that because uh you know to make a decision when you you had a stable job that um is reliable provides kind of steadily income it's it's [clears throat] a very big decision to decide to quit because you almost at least for me I I recently quit my uh job it almost felt I almost felt like guilty for uh for designing to to do it uh because it's it's reliable. It provides everything that you know that I wanted I need. So how how did you make that decision to uh like take the plunge and start your own company?

>> I think it definitely came in stages. It wasn't something I did overnight, but also it wasn't something I've been thinking about for years. So I think naturally I'm much more of a risk taker and I as much as I like a stable job, a stable life, for me too much comfort sometimes seems a bit boring and I'm lucky to have a partner who is also that way. So I think definitely having that conversation of being okay stable job is great and as you said like I was doing something in my field. I was growing a lot in terms of doing different AI uh applications really learning a lot about the field and I was constantly surrounded by like experts which who I can learn from but then it's about like what do you want your life to be and I think when when I was thinking about it um I asked myself a simple question what's my worst case scenario like if everything goes bad if like you know I quit my job my company doesn't work about like what is it that worst worst case scenario everything messes up and when you put that put that thought on the list and you start thinking okay if everything messes up what are my backup options what can I actually do then you realize my worst case scenario is not that bad my worst case scenario was this doesn't work I've spent my savings while bootstrapping and I just need to find a job which is more or less where I started from [laughter] literally worst case scenario was my current scenario with a year in which I've learned a lot about how to make a business, how to make a company, [snorts] I've really struggled but I've really really learned so much so far away out of my comfort zone that I think when you put when you put things on a paper and you see okay even if it messes up I I'll figure it out.

And I think that's one of the biggest things you have to have as an attitude once you start your business. Just you'll figure it out. It's not about knowing a lot. It's not about really being ready cuz I don't think I was ready to have my own company, whatever that means. Uh I think people put a lot of pressure and I certainly did initially.

I thought I have to be smarter. I have to be more experienced. I have to have a bigger team, more more connections, more networks, more money. Um I definitely if you look into the criteria of what the founder has to have maybe I didn't have any of them. Uh but it's about the attitude that I'll figure it out like and that's what that's what really helps when you're in a company because you don't know the right answers when you're making something of your own.

Um I definitely had to unlearn a lot of things. I learned in IBM in terms of having that big company that a lot of structure doing things the proper way taking the time to really think about every single detail when you're running a startup. That's not how how it works. Uh you need to be a lot more uh focused on how much how fast can you fail. Literally that's that's your KPI.

how fast can you put something out, test it out and fail and then learn from that failure and then build it better. Um, so as I said, definitely wasn't ready. Um, but I would say to everyone thinking, don't wait to be ready. Um, just think about what are your risks because also I'm lucky that in my 20s I didn't have a mortgage. I didn't have kids.

I I still don't have kids. [laughter] Uh, so when it comes to taking that risk, there wasn't a bigger price to pay because I would understand somebody being more cautious if they have a mortgage, if they have like a credit, if they have their kids because saying I'm quitting and I'm going to do my own thing has an extra layer of responsibility to it once you are taking care of someone. Um, so I was lucky in that space that you know my family's they take care of themselves. Um I literally the risk was my own and yeah >> I think this is actually such a good exercise to do because I was thinking actually that like the very same thing like what is the worst scenario and for me it was like okay like the very very worst even if I like I can't find another job uh we can always move in with my parents who would absolutely love that [laughter] [gasps] and I was like I mean it's not it's not you know I'm not going to end have on the street um I have like family that's going to support me. So um is is super useful.

But let's talk about the how did you come up with the idea uh for tailored. I think I've always struggled with fashion in my whole life and I maybe I wasn't struggling as for a normal person but I struggled because I have an older sister and she used to be a model and she's super fashionable like she's she's always like with the latest um not with the latest but she always has style some elegance and I thought looking at her and looking how I dress and I was like something doesn't add up like why can't she look so good uh And for me, it was so hard to like really put those outfits together. And I would always ask her, she would be my go-to person. I would always message her, be like, "Okay, should I buy this?" I'll be in the shops take pictures or like being on a video call and be like, "Okay, should I buy this?

Is this better? Is this not?" [snorts] She'll be brutal also. I think that's one thing which the app still doesn't have, but maybe it will in the future. Uh she's brutal when it comes to comments.

She'll be like, "Um, where are you going to get where are you going to go out? to have like um like a slider where it says, you know, [laughter] >> like um how how honest do you want your feedback [laughter] and be like friendly um colleague or you know >> European? [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I've been thinking about that.

One of my friends also told me the other day she would she would really love it if there was an Eastern European version in which like she just roast you. Uh so that's something I'm thinking definitely may come in the next uh in the next few weeks, maybe even a month. Let's see. Um but she was definitely kind of the inspiration behind and not that much the inspiration but the struggle once she stopped responding to me because then she started having kids, family, and then my problems around my fashion choices weren't her priority anymore. So I thought to myself, come on, like I'm building these applications for like big companies and I can do this.

I know I can do this. Why why don't I make something for myself and like an app like this? I think initially tailored wasn't in my head. Tailored wasn't what is it now? My first very first idea of it when I pitched it to one of my best friends in our living room was um what if I make an app which steals your money like gets a proportion of your paycheck, puts it somewhere like in a [snorts] in an encrypted space and you cannot touch it and it saves it over time and it decides what to buy you with it based on your style.

And then I was like, "Oh my god, that's going to be genius." like so many people who just want to give their money away for somebody to shop for them without them having any control. And then saying that out loud, I was like, okay, nobody will get that. [laughter and gasps] Maybe in the future when I have a lot of trust, but initially just putting your money in an app and saying you can't touch this [laughter] because I'm going to buy you something special in a few months. Maybe uh wasn't it.

But I think that was what I wanted. I wanted somebody to stop me from making those bad purchases and make a good purchase for me instead. So that was kind of the initial idea I had and then um I think starting to pitch it to different my friends um different people. I started refining it to something a bit different to maybe what's tailored to today. My very first version of it was I wanted it to be everything I had to do with fashion.

I wanted it to be the full life cycle of a wardrobe. I wanted it to be something which helps me buy, which helps me style, which helped me declutter and then a full circularity when it comes to clothes in your wardrobe. Um, that was the big vision. Then once you start building it, you realize you cannot build everything and anything at the same time because actually people struggle understanding what the app is for. Is it like a buying tool?

Is it a styling tool? Is it a decluttering tool? What is it? and I go to them and I'm but it's everything. I want it to be everything >> and then in the end it's nothing.

So that's why we we gave up on some of the ideas for a bit. I put a pose on that and decided to develop the decision-m algorithm when it comes to purchases and then the styling algorithm [snorts] when it comes to your everyday looks or your big conference look or your podcast looks. [laughter] >> So talk to me about how the app works. Uh who and who is your ideal customer profile? >> Yes.

So how the app works? I'll try to be as quick maybe and it's not techy as possible, but if you want to dive into the tech details, let me know. Uh the app works very simple. [snorts] Uh you can digitize your wardrobe. So it it needs a digital version of your wardrobe.

But don't worry, it doesn't have to be perfect. I know we all have hundreds, maybe 200, 300 items in our wardrobes. As much as I wish people had less clothes, they do have a lot. So, usually you lose them when I tell you, "Oh, you have to make digital copies of everything." And you start thinking, "These are too many clothes.

I'm not doing that." >> We've actually made it very simple to get that wardrobe. So you can either do it by taking pictures like what you're wearing today and it's going to extract the clothes. So apart from having a digital calendar of your outfits and something to remember, you're also going to extract the clothes over time and this is going to build your wardrobe. An adversion is if you just want, you know, you have your decluttering time, it's spring season, you're going to prep for the summer and you're going to take everything out anyways.

Whilst it's on its on the bed laying out, you can just take a photo and it can recognize up to 10 to 12 items in a single photo. So, you don't have to do the whole let me put one item and take a picture. So, you can take a lot of a lot of pictures at the same time, a lot of items in the same picture. You can take a photo of your entire shoe cabinet and it's going to extract each of those items. Once it have that, you can also further personalize the app by putting your outfit inspirations.

What is that? I think we all have it. At least everyone uses Pinterest when it comes to how do you dress or Instagram. You can put some photos of influencers you like or some outfits you just saw or even your outfit which you thought are cute [snorts] and it it's going to analyze them and see what are your patterns, what is the style you're going for and it's going to make what I call like an aesthetics and style profile. And the other thing which it does is if you decide to put like a picture of yourself or uh fill in your details about your skin color, your eyes, your hair color, it's going to also estimate your color profile.

So that's already a lot of data when it comes when it comes to who you are as a as a person, as a person to style. >> I've seen on Tik Tok those color analysis. >> Yeah, with the sheets. >> With the [laughter] sheets. >> That's not something we do yet.

Uh maybe I can do an event like this uh to see how accurate it was in estimating the color profile. >> It's so interesting like just watching those videos because you want to see until the end what they're going to come up with. But anyway, yes. >> No. So definitely because colors do actually make a lot of difference.

Um and a well balanced outfit actually um really shows and really compliments your face and uh your eyes. So that's that's very important. That's why we put it as part of what the algorithm does. So this is everything which you have to set which I think it sounds a lot but you it actually takes a minute or two for the wardrobe side you don't have to put everything but then what it happens is you can go and generate outfits in your style. So a bit like Pinterest but with your clothes you can request anything.

You can say okay I want to go to like a podcast and see what it's going to come up with. Um another thing which you do is those fit checks. So, for example, when you're dressed like with something, but there's something missing and you're not entirely sure what is it, you can just have a picture of your outfit, it's going to first extract the item. So, that's already adding to your wardrobe very easily. But, it's also going to give you ideas on how can you make that outfit better, what accessories would work, what from your wardrobe as bags or like uh changing an item to another item would actually work.

Like the the big idea is that it helps you with decision making. As in Exactly. >> If I think about myself as a user, I probably spend an hour every day thinking about what I'm going to wear that day. And obviously it's it's a tremendous waste of time. [laughter] But at the same time, I think like being a woman, I can't be like Mark Zuckerberg where he just wears one t-shirt.

[gasps] And I don't really want to do that. So that's the like the the big idea is it helps with decision making. >> Exactly. So I my biggest mission was for it to help with decision making and to help people uh stopping them from buying clothes they never wear >> from the moment they think about buying something. So why usually think why usually someone thinks about buying clothes is because they feel like they don't have anything.

So the reason why we put the outfits there was to show the people you have what to wear. There is different ways to wear what you already have and different ways to combine. Okay. Now we stop them there but they're still saying okay I still have to buy something. Then the next big thing which the app does is when you go shopping you take a picture of what you're thinking of buying and it evaluates it against your entire wardrobe.

It actually scans your items, scans your style, your color profile, your body fit, your body shape. Uh, and it actually comes up with an entire score of is this a smart purchase for you or not. So, it tries to tell people would you wear this or is it something just you saw it's pretty? For example, now I see your blouse and I'm like that's going to look great. But I would use the app to see is it actually smart for me to buy it.

Do I have enough to wear it with or is it something just beautiful? Because clothes are beautiful. [snorts] Um, and is something just beautiful and I just want to have it, but it's not really a smart purchase for me. So, that was the point in which I wanted to stop people from buying things. Uh, they never wear and then even if I see that top, I take picture of it, I can then generate outfits with it.

So regardless that the outfits is something complimentary in my opinion for for that whole process of decision making when it comes to shopping it's something essential because it's very important people to imagine how to style an item and once even sometimes once I see the outfits it generates with the item like okay there is really not much for me to do with that item it's not it's not that well complemented uh with my wardrobe. [snorts] So as you said, yeah, it's definitely enough for decision- making, but the decision about purchasing clothes starts a lot earlier than just in demo shop. And I think the problem which a lot of people have including me is the fact that especially when I do online shopping I feel like there is that almost dopamine hit when as you're browsing and adding things into the basket and then waiting for it to arrive and then you know it arrives and you try it on and you probably return like all of it or some of it. How can you replace that, you know, that feeling that people have when they're browsing for clothes? So, I would actually I'm I'm completely agree with you first.

I think that's why a lot of the social media apps right now like Tik Tok, Instagram are so popular, especially Tik Tok, because they show you something new every time. the whole the whole uh dopamine hit when you're scrolling through clothes and you're treasure hunting, which is what exactly people are doing. It's that dopamine hit of seeing something new, learning something new, finding something new, and it's really a pure like an [snorts] a real journey to finding a treasure, to finding something which you think, oh my god, that's that's the gem. [laughter and gasps] Uh we're not that different from centuries ago, let's be honest. Um, so how can you replace that?

I think you can do all of that without actually spending a lot of money. That that was my idea with the app, especially with the outfit side, cuz I generate outfits sometimes in my free time, just to see what what what combinations can there be. Um, and that's why my approach and the way we developed the app, the app was to show you an actual person who looks like you like have has the has your features doesn't have your face cuz I think that's a bit creepy. [laughter] Um, but it's with your clothes and in a new outfit because that satisfies that uh feeling in people which let me see something new, let me see something interesting, something which I haven't seen before. And even sometimes I catch myself doing that just to see what it's going to offer.

Um so definitely you can do that. Maybe the purchasing side um people can just try to think what they can invest money in. Maybe invest in stocks. I don't know that's not financial advice in any way. Uh but try to see to to get more out of your money rather than just purchases cuz we have so many clothes right now and so many clothes are being produced that we don't need them and that's one of the biggest missions which once I had the idea initially I continued and grew it actually into a business because initially I was like okay I have a problem haha okay I can build something to solve it but if you look into the stats of what fashion actually does to the world.

It's mindblowing. It's more than 35% of all clean water pollution is in fashion is from fashion. That's like one/ird of all clear water pollution comes from washing those clothes to from the dyes which uh which are used when producing the clothes. Um also the whole fashion industry has more than um produces more CO2 emissions than all planes. And I was chatting to one uh fashion student in one conference and she was saying yeah our professors uh teach us that it's okay um it's okay to fly it's but fly naked.

So [laughter] really buy less clothes in essence because flying actually is better than the whole fashion industry combined. Um, and that's why when I made the app, it wasn't an app to just kill time and to just like make outfits because I don't personally find that pleasure and to dressing myself a thousand times. Some people do and no judgment to them. It's just not my thing. Um, it was really about spending your money on things which are worth it and stopping that whole consumerism side of the equation because as you said we get that quick dopamine hit of buying just buying by just buy more buy more that's that's going to be so good but we don't need to buy more and until we have that those circular m uh models in place because yeah the future is going to be great once we have circularity you know our um economy especially in fashion We use recyclable materials, then we put it back and nothing new is produced and we just recycle, recycle, recycle.

That's going to be great, beautiful. I love that. But it's t it takes time to get there until we get to that point. It's just going to be good to slow down a bit. It's not a eitheror cuz I think people think, oh, should I just use circular um like recycled items or should I just buy less?

You can do both. [laughter] uh because as much as I don't want to admit it, it makes financial sense to make clothes and to be producing more clothes whilst there is a demand. So my mind was let me solve the demand side of the equation because then nobody's going to be stupid even from the big companies to keep producing if there is no demand. Nobody's going to do that. So if you diverge that demand either towards smaller brands, niche brands, sustainable brands and generally reduce that demand so that there is less need for clothes, >> companies would actually stop producing that much because nobody can live at a loss for so long.

Now as a business owner, I know like if the business is not working up, you're not going to do you're gonna go towards a different industry. You're going to do something different. So yeah, as much as as much as this is just a nab for fashion, I think my mission behind it is much bigger. Um, and a lot of people say it's a bit delusional cuz yeah, stopping consumerism. >> Well, you know, I think as a founder, you have to be a bit delusional.

You know, you have to have the uh the conviction that it's it's going to work and you're I think part of it is is the journey itself. um and all of the things that you learn uh as you're on that journey. But when I think about uh how like how do you how do you create an app? Uh how you know you go how did you go from okay the idea is that I will create an app that will help people decide what to wear to actually having an app in the app store. I it's a longer journey than what I would like to admit and definitely if I if I did it now if I start a new app now I would do it very different so I can tell you both things I'll tell you what we did and how it happened and what I would do differently if I was starting from scratch right now so what we did is luckily I have a co-founder so it wasn't a one oneman thing it was a two people job and it was very good because back then none of us have built an app before uh as I said I used to work as data scientist and kind of um an AI engineer.

You can something it's a general role but basically we're building AI applications for clients but I was mainly dealing with the AI side of the equation. So we would train the models or we would like make the models work and produce those results. So we process the initial data which a company would give you then figure out how the AI should work so that from that data you get the desired outcome. >> Did you know how to code? >> I knew how to code.

So I've been coding and that's one of the things I took actually from the internships and for my physics course cuz I don't think people really understand but when you do physics actually one of the composory elements of doing your degree is to learn how to code because you have to code to analyze your data. Uh regardless of what field you go in whether it's going to be particle physics whether it's going to be any other type of physics you're going to be needing data to prove whether your theories are right. So you either have to be very good in mathematics and you're going to be doing just things on paper or you have to learn how to code to really make that data work for you and prove that those theories. Even if you're a theoretical physicist, you still have to learn how to code because then you run different mathematical models. So you cannot escape coding in physics regardless that it's not advertised that way.

That's why it's not a surprise that a lot of physicists then go into something like software engineers because we have that problem solving but we also learn how to code and then I did apply that in my first job in my uh first um internships as well. And I always kind of um learned more. I was definitely a Python person. So because you need to make analysis, Python is usually the best way to do so. um at least in my experience back then.

So I knew this part of the equation. Knew how to process the data, how to make it do what we have to make it do. But having an app and building an actual app in app store, there is a lot more to it. There is a big backend cycle which is where you store your data, how do you encrypt it, uh what cloudr run functions you do. So really how you make your back end as a data storage work and work efficiently and securely.

And then you have the whole the whole front end uh front end side of the equation which is how do you make the app look good for the people not clunky but also have aesthetics. Uh because if you look into the data people would judge literally a book by its cover enough by its interface. uh and if it looks clunky or if it doesn't look very aligned or and very aesthetic, they would just perceive it's bad. So they would so they would they would just close it. So regardless that they knew that this is a vanity metric, I knew that we have to do it well because that's the game we play.

So we kind of split uh my co-founder did the entirety more or less the entirety of the back end side. I was helping on the AI algorithms and my big focus was the front end. never done my front end before, let's be honest. So, we just decided it wasn't a matter of, okay, how do we do that with AI? Back then, that was August, September last year.

Um, AI wasn't that good. I think now clothe and cl have changed the game completely, but back then they weren't that good. And on our side, because we're technical people, we wanted to build a good product. So we wanted to build it the proper way not the way in which like people can vibe code something we just took a bit of pride into building something ourselves building it from scratch building it with the proper ways um that's why I say wouldn't advise anybody to do that [snorts] but we built it so we built the back end ourselves completely the front initially we used uh a tool which is called flutterflow so it's a bit more a UI based approach in which you decide how it looks and you're kind of moving the UI components and it writes uh code in the back, but you still have access to the entirety of the code if you want to check if you if you want to change something. That definitely was our one of our biggest mistakes when it comes to code when it comes to the whole product because we decided to outsource that front- end site and not outsource it but kind of use a tool for it.

Um, biggest mistake ever. If I could go back, I would write the code myself because learning a tool like that like Flutterflow, it helps a lot but also has a big learning curve. So I think by the time I learned how to be efficient and do everything with Flutterflow, I would have learned how to learn and uh write Flutter myself. >> So I I didn't think that speed uh in these two is going to be that different. So I thought, "Oh my god, Flutterflow is going to be make me so easy.

I can release the app within like a month." Realized I have to learn so much even to use the tool. And I was like, "Okay, I should have just learned Flutter myself." And we're back to basics now. We left the tool and now we're fully coding the front end ourselves because now also you have coding agents which make it so much faster for you to write code because I talked to a lot of software engineers, a lot of my friends who are in the software um in the software business.

Nobody writes that much code anymore. You just think about the architecture, think about how it has to be structured. You have the skills to check whether the code the code is good. But then you make the AI uh code it for you because it's so much faster and you you have to be literally oblivious to like not be using an an AI agent or something to help you write faster code. Um so long story short, we decided to build it ourselves.

build it in the scope of around three months the three months the first version [snorts] we built the back end build the front end with flatterflow built the back end ourselves um and then decided to put it through the app store review didn't build a Google app for quite some time now it's live so I I would say that but we decided let's put it on one platform so that we have one point of failure we did all that and we decided okay we're ready we did the pages at first cuz you have to do your Apple page like your beautiful screenshots how how do you communicate your value and all of that and that whole thing took 3 months which was a lot of time [snorts] I wouldn't go that road ever again [laughter] uh because then once we released the app we started really collecting the live feedback then we started talking to the customers by really talking to them not with a survey not with like oh would you do this but really having the proper 30inut interviews uh in which you ask why would they want a solution like this? Would they actually pay for it? Where is it clunky? Does it solve the problem? Uh if I was to build a startup now, I would go something completely different way.

I would have an idea. I would prototype it first. I would make as easy prototype as possible. Usually web page. I wouldn't go towards the uproad at all.

>> Yeah. I would make a web page and I would directly go and talk to my customers immediately. So see how many people find them out like do a marketing uh a marketing sprint. I'm going to make an Instagram account or Tik Tok account. I'm going to start making content because a lot of people think they should and me too.

So uh just to say um I'm not coming from my high horse. I was quite there thinking that I should think about marketing get my client so much later. I need the product fast. No, you don't. That's a lie.

Build something scrappy. Get marketing fast. Get get your idea out there. Talk to your clients. Find them in some way.

I don't care what way it is, but find at least 100 200 customers at first some way and really talk to them. Then once you collect all that feedback, iterate a lot based on everything they've told you. Iterate the product. see whether your new iterated version is something which they use because people if something is good and if it's over painoint they would use it regardless of how scrappy it is like they wouldn't care whether it's on a web page whether it's on a on an app yes the app really helps but that wouldn't that wouldn't make it or break it a user is not going to become a user just because it's an app if it was good on web page yes they would use in the app as well >> as long as it solves the the problem >> literally So having that really good problem to solve is the hardest part. So iterating there and iterating fast is um is the biggest thing you have to do.

Don't focus that much on building the the product because you can even raise investment once you have that initial traction. Once you have that uh that initial prototype you can then raise investment if you want to don't want to do the app yourself. You can raise investment get somebody uh to to help you with it. U it's not impossible to do it yourself. As I said, just have a can can do attitude.

Everything is learnable. AI can help you learn so fast. Um, and really have you make your app at by yourself. No issues here. You just My point here is it's not worth the time initially to invest it into making your app before going out, finding customers, talking to them, and improving the whole concept.

After that, go build your app. I think a lot of people when and you know I've been talking to you about um thinking about building an app uh is the thinking is okay I have to create the product first so they can you know play around with it and use it and the the marketing kind of comes after I have really polished thing but you're saying no like focus on the >> completely opposite the thing I was I was thinking the same and together with my co-founder we were like yes okay we have an idea we build a good product clients are going to come they're just going to magically appear and they're going to buy it because it's so good because we've put so much effort into making it so good. The real world the real world is not like that. A shitty um a crappy product with good marketing would do so much better than a very good product with zero marketing. As much as I believe in that word of mouth in that, you know, uh, things are if they're good, they're going to be found, sadly, that's not the case.

And I've seen it across the entire fashion industry because now, like it or not, I'm in it. [laughter] I was never imagining myself being in the fashion industry, but I'm there. And I see it with a lot of designers. Um, now recently, I've chatted to a lot of them at Source Fashion in a conference, and a lot of aspiring designers, they think, "Oh, I have to make an entire uh, collection. I have to make so many products.

I have to uh really produce and make the product. And they were talking to um companies who can produce the garments for them. And they have minimum orders of 500. So imagine investing all that money, not only the time, but investing the money to have that stock with you. >> And then thinking, okay, but now I have to market it.

You've lost a lot of time. And that's why I think now you've seen it. you as a person who has much bigger uh social media presence than me. Building people um building your community, building your um you really your profile, your social media presence during the journey is going to be much more beneficial for anyone starting their business. But here comes the big caveat because I'm speaking a lot as if I've done this.

I didn't do this. it comes um here comes the biggest lesson about really overcoming your fears because having a startup teaches you a lot more about yourself than about anything else. >> You're forced to overcome and face all your fears, all your different insecurities and you either overcome them and you make successful business or you're forever going to be in that slow learning engine. And I'm still in that process. I'm still in the process of overcoming my fears, being faster at content, being like less caring about what do people say?

What if someone's I know, someone I know sees it, what if I say something stupid? Um what if people think I'm so stupid that like they shouldn't engage at all? So you need to overcome all of those fears and actually start being okay here is my here is my approach to the world. Listen to it or not. uh and trying to get get an audience because that's the fastest way to market right now.

I did check um you know how do you get paid marketing in terms of like influencers, collaborations, marketing specialists, it's very expensive. So if you have the money and you know kudos to anyone who does and who wants to invest a lot of that go invest there is other ways to do it if you have more financial resource and you're willing to spend them on that. uh if you don't suddenly you have to overcome your fears and uh face the camera and do weird stuff. Do you think you have to like as a founder nowadays do you have to have create a personal brand which is kind of attached to the company that you have to be able to actually potentially like sell that product that you have. I think um there is a lot there is a lot to be said around here.

I believe yes. >> Have I done it? No. [laughter] Uh I I think personal brands it's about your opinions on on social media, your opinions anywhere and who you are as a person. Um everyone has their personal brand but really the hard part is communicating it well.

And I think that's a skill you're learning in the process of creating your company, talking to your customers, talking to investors, really selling your business over and over and over again and presenting who you are over and over and over again. Um, I think it's important. I think I'm on my journey to build that. I'm currently struggling building it separate to the business. Um, even if you see the tailored account right now, it's my face and it's me using the app and it's me talking to people about it, but it's one space to see both to speak to see both my perspective and the product.

I think a lot of founders try to separate that and have the product separate to them. Um, maybe that's something I'll do in the future. As of now, uh, and I'm I'm yet on my journey to find that personal brand and really build it. I think it helps because people are looking for someone to get inspired by. They're looking to someone to look for u to look up to, someone to really understand them, someone to speak their language.

And in the same way uh when I was doing physics, our professors used to tell us I'm giving you like 10 books to read. And this doesn't mean you have to read all 10 of them. They just uh explain the physics in different way. So find the book which speaks to you and I think this is the same with um people right now and influencer and the whole influencer stage it's you're finding the people who speak your language who explain the things in the way you understand them and that's why you follow them because um as much as we don't want to admit we want to learn something new we want to aspire to be different um and here it comes a lot about building that brand I'm definitely not the master there I'm still learning I think but I think um what way he's saying it like really rings true. I I don't know if you know the um a brand called Odd Muse.

>> Yes. >> So uh you know the founder Amy, she has a really uh strong personal brand and you know I like I went into the shop and tried their stuff but the main reason being like her story of how she found the company and all of that. So I think, you know, people really do buy from people and they buy into uh what the journey has been to get to that point and all of those things. Um because I think it's really hard to sell something when it's just, you know, it's just a logo. Uh unless you're Coca-Cola, [laughter] um you have to put like a lot more effort.

But when you think about um you've been uh you've been a founder of your own company for a year now, how does your day-to-day look like? Because and the I'm asking this question because when you're the the founder of the company, you have so many things to do because you're the uh you're the CEO CMO CFO. So you're doing all of those things. So how does your day-to-day look like and h how do you decide what do you prior? >> So that is maybe the the biggest and hardest to learn skill you have to you have to learn as a founder.

How do you filter signal over noise? And here I'm lucky because I'm not a solo founder. I have a co-founder and he used to be an operations consultant. So he used to very much teach people how to be effective, how to filter signal over noise and uh he's definitely a big support here when it comes to our structures as a company. How do we deal with the meetings?

How do we prioritize uh what tasks are we doing today? Because one of the reasons why some startups take a lot of time to take off and in a way ours in did take a bit of time to take off is you're doing a lot of things which don't bring value which don't move you any further to the final goal you want to achieve. And startups yeah it sounds very glory like you know it sounds like a great thing to do. Oh my god so amazing she has a company. It's it's a lot of things to do at the at the same time and my day definitely starts with like a first in the morning a meeting with my co-founder in which we discuss what are we going to do today and we prioritize our tasks by what are the metrics we want to move.

So at first we were thinking just tasks. Okay, what do we have to accomplish this week? What do we have to accomplish this week? So that we move the needle for the whole month. But then we realized um you're biased towards doing actions because you have that internal uh desire to do them like it's interesting for you to code.

So you say okay today we have to do a lot of back end and improve the algorithm. when you look when we started looking towards the metrics so towards our activation metric towards distribution towards monetization towards activation of users and ask yourself okay the thing I want to do does is it going to give me results in any of these metrics and usually this is where you start saying okay maybe me improving the backend algorithm today is not going to move any of the bottleneck metrics so we usually start by thinking okay what's our bottleneck when it comes comes to the metrics which is the metric we have to improve most and then we see how can our actions today move it and yeah it starts with that meeting we prioritize our actions for the day who's going to work on what and then usually we have some solo time working I'm more um especially now when I'm in London I'm more focused on talking to the users doing different distribution experiments walking around with my marketing bag which is also very fun [laughter] >> that Uh, so I'm like a walking billboard. Um, and now my time is focused on talking to my users, talking to my early customers, really seeing how they engaging with the app. Is there something missing? Having that uh white globe approach towards our uh very first uh customers in community.

And then at the end of the day, we usually see okay, have we missed one of uh one of the actions? Have how are we progressing? Are we on track to achieve it? And then the next day we do we we start the same but no no no day is the same. I think as you said one day I'm a marketing person.

I go on Carnab Street and I ask people about the outfits. Uh one day we have to discuss the algorithm think about whether the logic is good. Can we do something better to make it faster? Because if a lot of people tell you okay I love the app but the outfits are not that great. Then we start thinking okay how can we move the needle there.

Um, so different days, different person definitely has a bit of switching cost. So if you can bundle things up, it will be great. Um, but you just try to embrace the the diversity sometimes. What are some of the metrics that you're focusing on right now? Because again, there must be a lot of things like okay the number of downloads but then do people actually convert into being users and use it every day let's say and then how you know at what point do they drop off?

What is like how do you decide this is those are the key things. So we actually do what we called a weekly PMF meeting and PMF stands for product market fit a meeting in which it's all those metrics in one big big big spreadsheet. uh we measure them every week and we see how much have we moved from the week before and as you said it starts first from the acquisition side from the really distribution side we measure how many Instagram posts have we posted this week how many Tik Tok posts have we posted how many other distribution experiments have we done for example if I go to a conference and people uh take a picture with the mirror or anything else we do we measure how many of these we've done how many views or interactions we've gotten out of all of and how many downloads we've gotten, all of that. So, you start building your funnel. You're starting from people seeing your app.

You measure different distribution experiments. How are they going? Okay, you have the downloads. You've reached the downloads. Good.

You then you start looking at your Apple analytics and Apple usually tells you how many people have saw your app page and how many people have actually downloaded the app. Because each of these conversions on the different levels tells you different thing. If a lot of people see your app on Apple on Apple, but they don't download it, this means either you're not communicating its value correct >> or people think, "Oh, I'm not going to download this cuz that's not the product uh I'm looking for." So, there's two issues here. You either didn't show it to the right people or you have to improve something on your Apple page.

Okay, you have the downloads. Now, you we're entering the app and as you said, you start measuring everything. You measure how many people have downloaded, how many people have uh completed our survey and we see at what at what stage have they given up because that tells us okay what is happening at that stage. Did we make it clunky? Did we make it just not intuitive?

Did they give up because it was too much effort. So, we see how many people have downloaded the app, uh, finished the survey, then uploaded at least five items of their wardrobe because that tells us, okay, are they willing to really test the algorithm with their clothes, not only with uh what the app will give just without anything. Um, and then as you said, we look into activation and retention. So, once they completed that onboarding and put a bit of their clothes, do they keep using it? And usually here you have u some of the famous metrics like D7 retention.

So how many people have used your app at least twice in one week. So at least once but this means every week. Uh then you look into your D30 retention. So how many people have used your app at least once. And what we also look this early you don't have that much data.

And I wish you know we were in the millions of users and you have a lot of data but with a little data you have to dive even deeper. So what we do is we look this week what features were used. We try to understand why are some features used more than others and we try to see are others not used because they're not that useful or because let's say decide on your buy you would use it only when shopping. So it it makes sense that people are not shopping every day but they are looking for outfits every day. So you try to understand why is the why are the things happening.

Is there something which for example you see a user using a few features and then giving up. We also do graphics per user. So for our top 10 users every week we actually see what features they you use on every day >> so [snorts] that we understand what's their behavior, what do they come back for. Uh that really informs how you form your marketing, how you uh on board your new users and then talking to them, you understand the real reasons because that helps you then when you have a new customer uh see which which category they fall from. Are they going to be the shoppers?

Are they going to be the stylists? Like who uh who are they really trying to trying to be and what are they trying to uh use the app for? Because the one thing and what in the app world they call aha moment. So the moment in which the the person using your your app says aha okay that's useful that's something different and you really try to minimize the time to aha the time to a person seeing value in your app and then sticking a bit uh sticking longer. So these are a lot of metrics I would say but it's really important to see that activation that retention and in the end monetization monetization early on is something which shouldn't be ignored but it's something which you need to really experiment on because if it's just a free app and everyone can use it everyone can do whatever that's not a business [laughter] as much as I would want it to be it's not you need to provide such big value and solve such a big pain point that users pay.

So one of your biggest signals after you analyze your entire funnel. So from how many people come download and then use and they stay you start seeing okay how many of them pay and most importantly what do they pay for because that really indicates what is the real pain point people are willing to put money on the table for. So, how are you thinking about monetization when it comes to tailored? >> So, for us, we're still experimenting definitely because one of the big things is we've monetized only one part of tailored, everything else currently is free. We're monetizing only the outfits because that initially when we're thinking about cost versus value, we thought, okay, seeing clothes on you, even new clothes with your outfits, um that's going to be something which people would pay for.

And yes, so far they've been they've paid for that. Uh we monetize it with pay-per-view subscription and we're thinking about in the future affiliate revenue from uh the brands we on board and I'm going to talk about that in a second. Um but the pay-per-view is you can buy a bunch of outfits. So let's say we have style credits and every time you generate you make a request for outfits and you get four outfits, that's one credit. So you can buy 25 credits, 50 credits or 100 credits.

So that gives you that flexibility of okay, I'm going to an event now and I'm going to an event in two weeks time. I don't need the subscription but I need a few ideas to get me going. So that's a quick one. [snorts] And then if you're from the ones who actually using it every day because they want to see something different or even like you know uh just have fun by seeing what the app is going to what it's going to tell them or you're going on a big shopping spree somewhere um then you can have that. >> What's the reason that you didn't go with um with like a monthly subscription?

>> So it was exactly that flexibility talking to our first set of I think [snorts] 80 customers when we did our first round of interviews. It was really um easy to spot that the outfit problem is a problem and yes people spend a lot of time to dress but it's not that big of a point pain point in your everyday life >> because in the mornings yes you would want to think about what do I wear what do I wear but it usually what happens is you go have breakfast have coffee brush your teeth and by the time you have to pick an outfit you have to leave so people would just grab something and go so Not every outfit, regardless that we have those moments of yes, I've spent 40 minutes to decide what to wear for work and I had those, but that wasn't every day. Like I had those sometimes, but it wasn't the every day. So, we decided I want to give people the flexibility to use the app without that tying to a subscription. Um, yes, subscription when it comes to investors and people asking about your app.

If if I was looking solely for the profit, [snorts] probably I would maybe go on that way because that gives you predictable revenue of people really coming out. But I personally, I don't know. Um, as I said, I'm still experimenting there because I see how different apps approach it. And the best monetized app so far when it comes to the fashion world are the ones who make you pay without even seeing the app, which is something I'm not entirely happy with. A lot of them will make you like subscribe for a month or a year and then give you like a day trial.

>> So you have to put your card in, say that you're going to pay and then enter the app itself, which interesting. or the other ones you're seeing is completely on affiliate revenue which I think makes more sense but that comes when you have a very big uh customer base because then you can those purchases make sense and you have to establish yourself as a player there. Um but that's once again incentivize people to buy more because they don't have any any thinking behind the buying. A lot of what I see, let's say in some of our competitors like Ala and all of that, they just give you new clothes all the time and they're like, "Buy this, buy this, buy this." But there is not any reason why.

There is not nothing to think about that. And as much as I want this to be a business, I still have the mission in my heart. And uh that's why, as I said, we're not perfect on monetization. maybe some of the things I'm saying right now something which will do uh but I'm still figuring out how how can I make this even even a better business. I I think monetization is is such a big one because uh I think what you said when we last spoke the other day was uh if no one is willing to pay for the solution that you provide is a hobby.

It's not a business. Yeah. >> And I think asking for money from someone is a lot of people feel really uncomfortable. And I think you have to get over that feeling of being uncomfortable and feeling like no, I this is a solution that I provide and it's it's worth that money. Um so yeah, you have to [laughter] I think you have to get over yourself in some way.

But one thing I'm interested in is you with how fast things are changing like I mean Claude is coming up with the other day I used clot to 3D design something and print it out and is able to do that. Right. So how how do you build an app and have like and have certainty that or the feeling that people will use that instead of let's say cloth coming up with something or users using cloth or chat GBT to uh do their own styling and to not have that that panic that Um, oh wow. Like it feels like it can do almost anything now. >> I think you embrace it rather than you fear it.

I think definitely technology is changing all the time and you being trying to be oblivious towards the competitors and towards what's going on. Um, that's not going to take you anywhere. I think for me is I keep uh I keep on track with all my competitors with as you said big platforms even how are they solving that solution and you're seeing are you being better and can you provide more value than that um at some point I think with every business somebody can come always and take a big a biggest market share and you can always live in fear and be like okay I'm just not going to start it cuz somebody will at some point or you can give it a fair a fair chance try to solve that problem and do it better than any competitor because I tried the other day to use act GPT as my app cuz I've taken a photos of all my wardrobe which is around 120 items um across like 20 photos and I decided okay you know what this app is not going to be worth it if can do the same or a better job and I tried the same thing I said okay this is my wardrobe put all my 20 photos in and said now give me outfits and I'm going to let's say to London for a conference, realize that it still struggles. So, it's good to have those tests at all times >> because it's very wrong to think, okay, now it struggles, so I'm safe. No, no, no.

These are huge companies. These are companies with like thousands of people with huge investments and you as a startup, which currently is bootstrapping like me, thinking that, oh yeah, they're going to stay that way. Very wrong. you know check how it goes and how well how well they performing they can always come with something new and yes your business is going to die and sadly that's part of the game uh but try to be faster better cheaper [laughter] uh as much as as much as uh I want to give a different advice it's like that competition is part of the game when it comes to businesses and [snorts] regardless that that business may dine let's say if I don't know chip comes up with some styling link and all of that. And right now actually Google Play uh Google and um Apple are trying to do a folder in your app in your phone which extracts all your clothes.

So from all the pictures of you, they're going to try to get all the clothes and put them in a folder for you for you to have your digital wardrobe which at the first glance I have read this article about like Samsung didn't get and I was like oh my god like wow okay scary. But then I thought, wait, this is going to be literally a game changer for me because no longer would people have that barrier of trying to find their clothes. >> So actually was like, okay, that's actually much better because now instead of making people go take photos of their wardrobes, they can literally go into that folder and put it in. >> So now it's a matter of okay, can they make a styling algorithm which is better than ours? And here is about let's try to be better.

Let's try to have something different than just uh because a lot of apps right now a charge rapper and yes if charg can do a better job no point in you. Can you make can you deliver more value and how can you deliver more value? So here it really comes to can you have partnerships with brands which people have uh can you bring some insights which uh the other big players can't have. So uh the problem of differentiation will always come for us it's yeah as I said I'm seeing a lot of the technology development as a plus rather than a minus to us but I'm constantly keeping tabs on how is everyone uh developing to make sure that we're being ahead um regardless and at the end of the day with all of these technological solutions it is about who can reach the most people and get the most customers. So that's why right now our full focus in more in distribution rather than improving the product cuz we've improved a lot the product.

The product I think right now is something I'm very happy with. Uh of course there's going to be some small stuff coming along but um then now it's about okay let's try to put that personal story out there. Let's try to really get on board people with the mission because that's at the end of day what we are. The big companies just want to make money. the small ones usually want to change the world in a bit of a different way.

>> And I think you know what you said about how um something is integrated into your app. I think that aspect of integration is very is very crucial because uh I used um copilot in the company that I worked in and a lot of people complain about how it's not the best model all of that but the fact that it was integrated into the outlook, PowerPoint, uh Word, Excel, all of these apps meant that it was super easy to use and really convenient And um I think there is actually a um uh this company a really big one that uh is focused on creating uh kind of AI but for law firms and even though they use the cloud and chat GBT and they build on it. The fact that they were able to integrate it into the systems that law firms use it makes it a really sticky product. Um, so yeah, I think um I think it's about how you know how easy it is to use and how you can fit into someone's life. >> No, exactly.

I totally agree with that. Um, I think Spotify has even proven it when it comes to when it comes to making that user journey so easy that it sticks. So as much as that's so far away from me as a as a tech founder because I always was only algorithms not really thinking about the whole user experience the whole design behind it. Um the good apps actually differentiate a lot by that by creating a whole experience and an easy re really low friction uh experience to use that product and to give a result which you're actually really happy with. So these are always going to be the measures which customers would uh would um really evaluate once once they see a new product.

So just trying to perform as best as you can on them. So what are some of the biggest mistakes slash takeaways uh you have after running a business for a year? >> So definitely wouldn't say I've run a business for a year. Uh I think it's been a year since I made the decision to quit. I think for the first for the first uh six months it was a bit more um a bit more focusing on the product a bit more less ignoring a bit the business side of the business.

The first six months I think was more of a technical hackathon in which we just wanted to build something very good. Uh and then we didn't think about the marketing side. and think about like we thought about the monetization but it wasn't in that um real sense of let me talk to customers we were really avoiding the customers because getting feedback is a scary thing at first um so I think the last six months has been the more running the business in the proper running the startup business in the proper talk to customers improve uh do different things try to make stupid uh stupid uh experiment experiments and stuff which don't scale but our way to get your first customers. So some of my biggest mistakes is as I said definitely is trying to build something good and big and perfect from the very from the very beginning. Uh as I said I would advise no one to to start with an app.

I would say go to a web page build something scrappy build it as fast as you can code design uh codeex whatever you want to use go base for there's so many places in which you can put your vision into an actual product something which people can interact with get that out there and see how customers react see are they willing to pay for a solution like this how would they use it where they struggle and get that data immediately but bear in mind the biggest thing which I did as a mistake is believing that people say I will buy it and buying it. >> These are very different things because people will lie to you bluntly and they're not going to do it from the you know from a bad place. They're going to do it from the goodness of their hearts but most probably 90% of the people who said I'll buy it if you release it are not going to buy it. So try to have that monetization side of things as signal as early as possible or a lot of other companies which have big investments and here is depends on how you build your startup. If you've now I don't know get got 10 millions your approach going to be quite different.

If you're bootstrapping you're trying to get that monetization signal as fast as possible and trying to get the word out there and test your problem as fast as possible. Some apps I see take a different approach. But these are apps usually taken with a big investment in the back. Uh who try to make a free app and popularize it and put so much in marketing to get a vast share of the market very fast. And once you have that share of the market um and you yeah like Uber like Ala like there is different apps will try to do that and then they're going to try to monetize later on but at first they're just going to be popular.

They want to have a lot of users on and then try to monetize a bit later on. So definitely once again don't try to build fast. Try to test the market. do marketing as fast as possible because as much as I don't want to admit it. If you're doing a B2C uh product, marketing is your is is your thing whether you like it or not, I don't like it.

But I have to do it. I have to walk with a mirror on my back, which at this point I embrace. Uh but you have to do stuff which are fun, stuff which are interesting, stuff which will get your the right customers with your with your product [snorts] and then test the signal. See how it goes. if if you're really getting that signal that yes, that's a pain point people will pay for then build a proper product and uh get on the whole entire journey.

So that's the biggest mistake we did. And then if you can overcome your fears faster, [laughter] I don't know how to uh but definitely I see there that it was hard for me initially to get that marketing um marketing hat on which I read a lot about marketing. I saw a lot about how other people do marketing. I read a lot about building your personal brand, building your company brand, but I didn't do any of it. It was analysis paralysis.

>> Uh so try to avoid that. Try to act as fast as possible because procrastination in disguise of making the your product better, making uh learning more, getting more money and all of that is just procrastination. So be up true with yourself because that's one thing I I was avoiding for quite a long time [snorts] and B why you avoiding that what's the fear behind it and say okay you either have to overcome that fear so that the business succeeds or the business will fail and um that would be it really try to embrace failing embrace failing um and it's very uncomfortable to do so because usually failing ing makes you think I'm a failure and these are two very different things. Um see failing as a learning opportunity and learn from it as fast as possible. That's something um I do very well together with my co-founder like analyzing those failures and seeing how how we do that how we do it better.

But you know if I was if I was that great and I have uh put all of those learning into action we would have taken a lot less to to get to the point where now I think it took some time to get into that mindset to unlearn the old things. Uh because the other thing coming from a big company is you learn that you have to have big processes you have to have a lot of forward planning. You have to have road maps. We did a lot of planning first. Maybe the first month was seeing how how fast uh like what's going to be our next month's uh ideas, our next month goals and all of that.

In the startup world, that's doesn't really work. Regardless that investors will ask you for your 6, 12, 18 months plans, that's good habit because that's something you need as a general point. But just be sure that whatever you think is going to happen is most probably not going to happen. Things are changing so fast. You meet new people, meet new connections which kind of help you do take a different route and now no longer you have to do things alone.

You can maybe do something with a partner um with a brand partner or somebody else. So think will change and losing a lot of plan a lot of time in planning instead of doing stuff is again analysis paralysis. I think um you know for example what I see when it comes to people who want to let's say do social media and build their personal brand one of the first things they do is they go on YouTube and then they will take like a 4hour course on how to build a personal brand and then they will order all of the kit from Amazon to be able to record stuff and then they'll try to create a script and you a month or two months have passed by, but actually they haven't recorded a single video like a one minute video which would teach them so much more than anything else that they've done up until this point. So I would advise against any courses. [laughter] [gasps] Uh nothing will prepare you to be a founder of a company or building apps.

Uh nothing is going to be so good as actually doing it. So just jump. And I I know it's easier said than done. As I said, it takes a lot of time to get into that mindset of doing doing. Um and even sometimes now I I still analyze and procrastinate.

And with social media, I'm like, "Oh, okay. I'm just shooting shooting shooting." And then I'm not posting for a week because I've just been shooting and preparing for the next big post, which I think is going to be so good. And then it's not that good and I've just lost a week. Um so yeah overcoming your fears is an ongoing process and something which you have to face every morning and really helps to have someone uh in the company as I said to bounce to bounce ideas off and to be your mirror in the times in which you refuse to look at yourself cuz that's I've I've heard a lot of hard truths uh from my co-founder sometimes and as much as in the moment it didn't feel good it's something which really okay once I I stopped being emotional about it and I'm like, "Okay, he was right.

" Like, I should have, you know, should have been more proactive. Should have should have not analyzed so much. Shouldn't have spend a week shooting stuff and not posting a thing. Um, so these are stuff you learn. And as much as um I'm not that um that critical in general, so some people feel terrible about it.

I'm just like, "Okay, it's part of the journey." Um but just don't repeat the mistakes again. So uh the last question I have is uh you know when you come back to that 17year-old who is uh in uni um about to about to graduate uh she does internship at every every year. What what like what would you say to her to you from a few years now ago? >> I would say she's doing great.

Uh I I wish I wish there is um one thing I could tell I could tell her that she would immediately understand. >> But I do believe that the things which happen to you are the things which like you learn from and they make you who you are in the end. I'll definitely tell her be braver. I think I wasn't that much of a risk taker back then. Uh I think I'm much more of a risk taker now.

And I'll tell her to really believe in herself because that's that's easier said than done. But don't try to don't try to prove people anything because I think I've always tried to try to prove people that I'm super smart. So I stayed in that career of like physics like doing the hardest thing I could ever do just to prove that I'm smart. um proving things to people won't take you anywhere. I think take the risks, try to do crazy stuff and just be brave in doing them.

Um I think she did well. I think she tried a bit of everything. She tried to be a partic physicist then decided to change that entire career for something very different. So I think she was brave. Um having that confidence and maybe like really reading a lot.

I think um be having that really test for knowledge is something which helps you down the line a lot. Um and yeah just just just be careful about who you listen to. Filter those opinions of people and understand why are they giving that opinion because that's something I saw in the startups as well. Um people are so willing to give you advice. Everyone can give you advice and they think they've figured out life.

Um, think about why they're giving the advice they're giving you and think about whether where they are in their journey as where you want to be and [snorts] filter those advices because when you're so young and you're not really sure which direction to go to, you're usually just listening to what people say and try to pick one of their parts. U, make your own path. And yeah, I think she did well. She'll she'll figure it out. Well, thanks so much for coming on the podcast.

Um, >> thank you for the invitation. >> No, I enjoyed it. This is a wrap on today's episode. [music] I'm so thankful to Simona for all of the learnings that she has given, uh, all of the takeaways and I personally learned so much and I'm sure you [music] will as well. The best way to help this podcast grow is sharing it with a friend and subscribing to it.

Thank you so much.