The Real Way to Drive AI Adoption in Your Company I Women Lead AI ft. Zoe Walters

My guest today has spent nearly 30 years leading digital transformation at some of the world's biggest brands, Condé Nast, Adidas, Diesel. Then, during the pandemic, she stopped. She went back to school and got her master's in psychology. Zoe started asking one question, what is all this technology actually doing to us as humans? And that question led her to found Empower AI and start a PhD researching how AI is changing leadership and human [music] behavior at work.

Her research found that only 16% of Asia professionals are actively using AI. She's on a mission to change that. Zoe Walters, welcome to Women Lead AI. So, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. The first question I would love to ask you is, uh, you know, you were chief people officer at, uh, Condé Nast.

Um, before that, uh, you were at Adidas and Diesel. And what, uh, how, um, did this shift happen that you decided to open your own business called Empowered AI, isn't it? Yes, it's a great question. So, thank you for having me here. It's lovely to be here.

Um, so, reflection is a really good thing, like as in looking back at your life. Um, and I when I look back at my career, what I realized was is even the theme from Diesel, um, and Adidas and Condé Nast, regardless of the position that I had, um, the title, I've always been involved in technological big projects, digitalization, AI. We didn't call it AI then. Um, and even as far back as I worked for a technology company in my super young years as well. I was always fascinated by technology because it moves fast.

Um and actually technology signifies so much to me, the connectivity. I love to travel and it makes the world a much I mean physically it's a big place, but it's a much smaller place now because we have access to information. And so technology, um you know, I I'm Generation X, so I remember before technology and then we had the tech boom in the in the early 2000s. You know, that was life-changing, revolutionary. We're here again.

And I think that that makes me feel like I'm a part of something that's moving and shaping. Um and that is just a wonderful feeling to be a part of. How did I come to own my own business? I knew that I wanted to do something different. I knew that I've always been very outspoken in my roles.

In HR that off- often comes with a little bit of restriction. You shouldn't do this and you shouldn't do that. Don't be too much. Don't be too this. Do this.

And I come to the place of I am myself. I know what my flaws are. I know what my strengths are. And um and I believe that I can do this. So my first attempt was I built an AI-powered um outplacement.

And this was 5 years ago, way before anyone knew what AI was. And it was I made every mistake that I could, um unintentionally of course. And then I realized that I loved something more, which was thinking of an idea, bringing it to life, taking it to market, and monetizing it. The money is the end part. I'm not so turned um on by that part of it, but it's it's the whole process.

Um and I knew that technology was still something I wanted to work in. So for the last 3 years, I have been more deeper in AI um and I hadn't known that maybe I'd used it so much before. And it it's just very natural for me to be in the tech space. So, when I met a great partner, one of the things I learned is when you get investors, be careful who you invest with or get as investors. It's a really big decision.

Um it was only when I met Aman Singh, my co-founder, that I it clicked. We had different skills, we're from different generations. He has speed and sort of dynamism, if you like, and I have the wisdom and strategy. So, it just worked and and we got clients super easy. Super easy.

And to me, there there was a flow that was just like, this is right. And I knew instantly, like, okay, I've met my work-life partner. Now, we can make great things together. So, here we are. That's amazing.

And how like how do you help companies introduce AI into organizations? Because from what I understand, you deal with the like the tech side of it and the people side of it. But, can you tell me more about, you know, let's say I'm an organization that has 50 people employees 50 people. What, you know, what how how can you help me? Absolutely.

Um what I will say is is that individuals and companies are on a very different timeline when it comes to AI adoption. So, companies are not as aggressive right now. They're they're still figuring it out as in what is it? What can it do for us? What's the investment?

What's the return of investment? There's so many more questions and a lot more fear. So, we typically work with organizations in a couple of ways, which is we can come into your organization, understand where you're at, and then give you really practical sit on whether it's an AI steering committee or be an advisory. We can come in and sort of say where see where you are, what makes sense for your business, and then be able to guide you in practical implementation. And that may be simply education because most people that that that that sit in the procrastination is because it's a fear-based it's a fear-based problem.

So we have to get them to play and see the AI and all its wonderment and what it can do. And that's usually typically the the the first entry stage into a company that doesn't really know how to do it or what to do or why to do. Then you've got companies that are a bit more advanced. Um they've started to use tools but now they realize that those tools aren't talking to each other. So their data is becoming a bit dirty or duplicated.

So we would come in and we would absolutely evaluate all of that. So it's not really an AI thing that we do at that time. It's more around where's your processes and what's working and what's not working. Um and having a look at how we can start to help the organization optimize what they have. Um and that mean there's some more integrations that they need to speak to each other.

It might mean that they need another tool. We always kind of had the philosophy of diagnose, architect, and embed. So we think about we need to understand what's happening. We now need to architect whatever it needs to work efficiently to what you want the outcome to be and then we have to embed it so that invariably with people you need to take on the journey. So there's a part of education that comes.

It's either at the beginning, at the end, or at the beginning and at the end of that sort of process. So we help them with that. How do you do that education piece because I think like the way I think about it is that it's the hardest thing because you can just buy, you know, a 20 $20 subscription uh per employee and you sign up to the tool but actually making sure that people use it uh within an organization uh is like I feel like completely different thing. Yes. Um so I see that a lot.

So what I'm experiencing right now is where the companies or Microsoft or Google, they're they're with Copilot or Gemini um typically is their tools. Why wouldn't they um in that in those scenarios? What I will say is that most people have a life that they're using AI with and they would use ChatGPT or Claude or Perplexity or whatever they might be using. And so they typically work outside of the domain. So we've got no visibility on what they're doing and they can create some documents to then put into the Copilot or Gemini.

Um so there is some efficacy that needs to happen around you can't use things outside of work. So there's an there's different levels of education is understanding what that means in terms of bringing data outside of the protected domain. Um and I think that a lot of companies are investing. That's the kind of education up front. When we talk about adoption, um I think the easiest way is to play.

We're all children. We've we've all been children. We've got an inner child in us and we have to play. The minute we play and we see a benefit to us, then the then the the motivation, the the momentum builds because now um they're doing things that either they're interested in. So a lot of the the the work that I do is take a topic.

I don't care any topic. Let's just talk about the topic that you love and now interact with your LLM um which is large language model. I know you know that, but for those listening um in interact with it as as though you want sort of a genuine discussion and to fact find and see what you can about a topic you already know. And then after that, they're like, "Wow, I didn't know I could do that." Or "Wow, that was So then we can we've got more interest.

So we've got over one barrier, which is about the fear of using it. Now, for me is like, what do you want your organization to do? What is it that really um is making your client clients happy? Cuz everyone's got customers and clients, whether it's a product or service. So, what are you trying to do in relation to that?

Think about the business objectives, and then let's work it into what your specific tasks are, and let's have working sessions where you are absolutely doing the work in our sessions together. So, not only have you done and achieved something together that's relevant for your job, you're not then having to translate that into your workplace. You've already done it sat in your seat in a session. So, the miscommunication that happens or the miss um I guess opportunity is when somebody sits in a classroom or a style of learning, and then they don't take it into their work. So, we overcome that by doing.

So, there's I always talk about learning styles. Listen, watch, read, do. Do all of them. Do all of them in a session, so you're hitting every part of the modalities, and then typically somebody I I call it the hook. They get hooked, and then they're like, "Okay, good.

Now I'm good." And then confidence builds. Once that confidence builds, then somebody can be more adventurous. But, there's a lot of fear around fabrication, hallucination, um wrong fake news or information. And so, it gives people comfort that they're now using it in a proper way.

And there's all sorts of education you can do from how you um how you safeguard, how you put guardrails in, to how you can prompt really really well, um how you can extract, um analyze. All of those are also really good prompts. The better prompt you are actually on any tool, the better the quality is of what you're getting from your AI tools. And you know, like I saw research the other day which showed that a lot of people use uh um these like large language models whether that chat you to or co-pilot as a kind of smarter browser. So um you know, I've been experimenting with Claude Code.

And I was able to create a workflow where it dubbed a whole like one minute video into Spanish. I can understand more or less of Spanish, but I if I could speak like this then this would open the whole you know, whole other world for me. But I I see that still the the way that people use these tools is it's like such a small percentage of actually what's what's possible. Do you see that as well when when you come into organization? Yes, so in 2025 I did my first benchmark survey.

So what is it in terms of the HR population or let's say people first businesses that could be in-house HR practitioners, talent people, compensation, anything to do with the human resource arena and also for consultants that now set up their own practice. They could be recruiters, talent management, change management, culture, whatever it is. I did a survey. So I got 277 participants in my first survey which was a pretty good data set. What that showed is just over 16% of people were using AI.

Majority of those were in a weekly basis not a daily or monthly. And also what the tools that they were using was ChatGPT, Gamma, Grammarly, Otter. It wasn't particularly tools that you that I would have chosen. There was a small percentage of uh, and Gemini at that point, ChatGPT dominated it all. So, um, and what they were using it for was really content creation, thought partnership, um, very few people were using what I would say for a very valuable process.

Not that content creation isn't, but then you get the same story, which is it doesn't sound like me, it's not very authentic. So, there's certain things that come along with that. I've rerun the survey, it's open, um, for another, I think another week now. Already, I've seen, so the 16.7% last year is at 80 plus percent now.

And I'm already seeing that people are using it for much, much more, um, than it it should be. Now, if I look at the typical functions in a HR arena, you have from operations to recruitment and hiring, to talent management, to performance management, to health and safety for some organizations, compensation and report, ods, well-being and health, um, all of these things, uh, separation agreements, you know, all the the life cycle, um, you know, we're starting to see more areas come, workforce planning, and that's exactly what I've used to create the content for these organizations that you mentioned earlier on. So, I've got a client that is opening a whole new plant in their business. They need to hire, they need to do workforce planning. We actually use the learning to, um, the learning sessions.

So, I was with them for a day to give them all the basics, and then we've done bite-size espresso sessions, which is taking each of the components of this project. So, by Q1, they'd already done all their objectives for the year, um, and it was amazing. So, now they've really had confidence that they've seen the output, but we're I'm I'm definitely seeing that shift now, that it's a daily use. People are actually codependent on it now. So, um, that's been a real massive shift in a year.

So, when the survey's out, I'll be absolutely thrilled to share it um and my findings with you. Yeah, we'll we'll put the link um in the description. I was um one thing that I wanted to ask you is um I was um at an event in London the other day and there was a um uh go-to-market um person from ElevenLabs and she said, "Oh, you know, when I uh joined the joined ElevenLabs, um so ElevenLabs is uh Are you familiar with it?" >> Well, only only because I saw your post and I I was having a lit- a little look around, yeah. So, I'm not super familiar, but >> Yeah, so it's like um uh it allows you to do voice overs, dubbing, a lot of different uh things.

And she said, "Oh, you know, we use Claude's uh Claude's code and Claude's co-work all the time. If someone doesn't like the way that the dashboard looks like, they just, you know, they just spin up their own. Uh we use skills uh and if someone comes up with like a skill that is useful for other people, we just share it." Um but I wondered like how do you create this kind of culture within organization where people are so open to like using these tools? Is it Is it like Is that education is the main piece or is it the leadership that has to really kind of show the example?

Uh I think it it really depends on the type of organization. Um I was at Google a few weeks ago and one of the topics of discussion, I mean, we talked about AI without saying AI, really. We talked about Google's Project Aristotle and how that they expect their managers to be deep experts and they have to know about um their tools, AI being their tools. Um or one of their tools. And they expect their managers to be deep experts, you know, they have to be involved.

And so, that is a technology company, and I think that we all need to become a technology company to a degree, because tech is well, I mean the skills trade is going to have a boom in the next few years. Plumbers, electricians, um, builders, probably now technicians, hairdressers, people that have a hands skill, you know, perhaps will be exempt from having a tech organization, but there will be a really component which will help them. Um, so I think it really starts with what type of organization. I think if you look at finance, finance and legal, there's so much compliance that's required. And a lot of that is very repetitive, which is very prime for automation.

So, I think that there's a massive disruption, but there'll be so much nervousness in that because of the compliance and legalities. But, I think that that's a primary aware, but I think that they might be certainly the legal sector might be a bit more late to the game with that. And then you've got hospitality, which probably wouldn't be an I'm not seeing them as early adopters because their their their job is so with people and relationships and connection. Um, so, those sorts of organizations are probably going to be quite more resistant than than some that are really looking at their processes, they're very process-driven. Um, so, where they are quite process-driven or it's prime, I think you have to what I see works is that you've got to lead, you've got to lead, you you have to allow time for people to learn.

Um, we're so busy, the human has got so busy because we're trying to keep up with AI. The world is moving so fast. And what makes us human is that pause and stop and reflection that AI cannot do at the moment. Maybe in the future, but it can't reflect on what we think and feel about something. And I think that's where the human needs to and that's where leadership comes into.

Um a part of my PhD research is looking at leadership and moving through the times of AI and what skills they need to have in the future because we've got a very big um leap in behavior when it comes to generations. So, Gen Z and Alpha um are a much more conscious uh attitudes and behaviors. Whereas a a Gen X and Y are much more task focused. You know, we were told what to do and we just find a way to do it. There was no question.

Whereas lots of people say that Gen Z are very entitled. I don't think they are. They've grown up in a very different world than an X and a Gen X and Gen Y. So, um it it's also going back to how does your audience learn? And make it exciting and playful and fun.

Life can be very serious, so we need to have fun. And and and and and have more places where we can have fun and have time to have fun. And when we have fun and we're enjoying ourselves, if you think about the playgrounds when we were kids, you would see people laughing and playing and you think, "Oh, I want to be in I want to be in that group. I want to be in that um and we we were too young to kind of strategize it if you like like we do as adults in the corporate world, but we also knew that we wanted to have fun and be laughing and playing and and and that's no different. We need to think about why are games so um even as adults, why are games so um interesting and so exciting?

Why are we gripped by them? Because we're consumers. We want to consume. So, we need to put it in the way that people want to be hungry to consume it. I think what you said about like having fun with it, yeah, I think uh I was like a a few months ago I was using a new banana model.

Um, so, it allows you image uh generation um, capability. And it's like it's so fun, you know? I put the the picture of of my partner among a field with llamas, right? >> [laughter] >> And I think there is you learn you you do learn so um so much better when through play. So, I definitely agree with that.

But, um, what I I would love to know is when it comes to introducing AI into um into a business, like, what do you see companies doing right uh versus wrong in in terms of running it out? Any technological rollout um, is never linear and never smooth. Not in not in the years I've worked with big projects and small projects of rollout. I think there's a behavioral expectation. Humans are inherently um, change-resistant um, mostly.

And so, we need to imagine the new world and we get so stuck sometimes talking about the process. But, what we need to do is present the world in this way once everything is in place, how beneficial it is to the individual in their role, in their life. Who doesn't want an easier life? Who doesn't want more simplicity? Who doesn't want more time?

So, I think there's there's we need to be better at kind of selling the story about the outcome first. We need people to be able to feel like they've got also got choice about how they can adopt that change. You know, we're not robotic. We can't be marched through a process. And organizations are usually desperate to do that because it takes disruption.

You know, any any new kind of technology is is typically quite dis- disruptive. So, um, how we can overcome that is allowing time to make sure that we're talking about it. Repetition. If you think about being a child or seeing a child, we weren't born with skills. We had very little skills.

We could feed and we could, you know, we had a an an ecosystem, but we had to acquire skills to become an adult as we age. Um and so we have to practice. And we didn't just get on the potty and do it. We didn't just ride a bike. We didn't just walk because somebody said walk.

So we have to kind of like see, do, listen, do. We have to hear things over and over again. You don't decide to be a Wimbledon tennis player and then suddenly the next day you are. There's a whole time period or or any at the top of any game is practice, practice, practice, practice. And you're going to make that practice fun.

But I'll come back to the fun factor again. Um and once that is we've got to that that space, then people will take themselves on their own journey. But you've got to get them to a place where they're enjoying it. It's fun and they can see the benefit. They can see what you're talking about.

They can make that connection cuz lots of people now cannot make the connection of what will life be like when I fully adopted AI. No one can understand that world. So I don't talk about AI with them. I say, "What would you like the world to be in the future? Let's talk about your lifestyle.

Let's talk about your career. Let's talk about everything that you design your life and then how you get there is the tools that you use. AI is one of those tools. Now for more advanced companies who have lots of tools, the problem is now that they have too many tools. Their tech stack is exponential.

They now got cost out of out of control um and and things are moving. And now they're they're locked into agreements. They're locked into using these things and now it's like, "Oh, now I've got, you know, another 3 years to be in Microsoft Dynamics. So, I've got x amount of years locked into we can't change here, we can't do that." So, that's where I think it's critical that any anytime you're thinking about technology, there's a now component in the present moment, but there's also the future.

Where are we going? And whether that's 5 years, 10 years, you might not know the exact steps to get to that, but you'll know a general direction. And and be looking at your technology in a way is how future-proof is it? Knowing that it's going to get you to a certain stage in revenue or size, that's great, because at least you know, we're approaching that. We now need to reset the stage for our next stage of growth.

So, um and for very well-versed companies, they will have, you know, massive uh uh capabilities within the technology that they already have. Um and so, therefore, uh my own advice to them is is understand what technologies you're using today, consult with those technologies, and see where their future is going. And is it aligned to yours? If it's not, you now need to think about changing that technology over a phase period. And you know, when it comes to HR, I feel like you mentioned that they're gatekeepers of education.

And I definitely see that in in the company that I work for. Um so, it means that the the way in which they're comfortable with the technology has impact on all of the employees, because they're the ones who usually uh do the uh the education uh in regards to different new tools. Um and so, that means what do you think that role is with HR? And do you think that they have that responsibility to actually really understand it really well? Because otherwise, I don't think that they can provide that education, um and you can't guarantee like a good roll out of um of AI uh into into that organization.

What What do you think? I think it's absolutely instrumental that HR gets behind AI, and it's one of the part of the reasons why I started this job. I mean, my intention as a human spirit is something which is not replicatable by um AI at this moment in time anyway. I fundamentally believe that HR needs to really change. And I think it needs to relinquish some of the stuff that it does um and outsource that, wherever that outsource is AI, whatever it is, to to focus on two specific things, which is there is no people strategy, it's a business strategy, and people are a part of that.

Um as they are profit, processes, um all of that kind of stuff. It's all one big house. So, if we take into consideration everything that the business needs, we kind of think about what are what's our job, HR, to help you to get there. And what tools and resources do we need to provide? Number one, organizational design.

How you want to interact with your customers. I should know that in HR. I should know exactly how we sell, how we market, what all of that information is, because then I understand deeply what you're trying to do um and how you're trying to get there. Right now, that's very removed for a lot of people, because HR doesn't have that seat at the table to necessarily understand that, which is to me, how can you understand what education you need? How can you understand what tools you need if you're not understanding your business deeply?

So, for me, it's about organizational design, so the home, how you're designing the house. You wouldn't build a house without an architect or a uh you know, an architectural design. You wouldn't build a car without specification. So, an org needs a specification that's fit for purpose for the outcome that you want. That's the first thing.

The second thing is the people within that organization need to be skilled and they need to be sharpening their tools all the time because those tools are changing. So, how can you teach somebody when you don't have any awareness of what the implications are on for that organization? So, for me it's an absolute critical if if HR just did those two things, org design and education, um that's in that's in empowering the organization, not being a gatekeeper, but saying what do you need to be successful so you can sell your product or service because there's a demand. Your clients are looking for something. They've got a problem they need to solve.

You're helping them do that. And ultimately, I don't see the employee as my customer. I see the customer and the client as my customer. Our people are supporting them to to get the outcome that they're looking for through the product or service. So, for me it's very simple that we mustn't get distracted with so much other than providing the the environment that people can best work in and the structure that they can work in and helping them to remain skilled and engaged in their work.

To me, that's where HR's role is. So, I think it's super important that they learn. You know, coming back to that conversation that you had with Google, um you said that it wasn't like really about AI. It was about psychological safety and um the responsibility for upskilling. What do you think from from a psychologi- psychological perspective the barriers that people face to actually um you know, to actually use use AI and implement it in their daily work and where does the resistant come from resistance comes from?

Because I hear from a lot of people they they don't want to use these tools because they're going to replace me. So, what do you say to these people? So, sometimes we have to overcome some blocks, mindset. Uh we have to overcome some challenges in the mind first, which is really showing people the way forward and it's it's it's engaging in the and giving comfort. So, that doesn't come with one attempt.

If we think about marketing, we've always applied a very loose concept from my perspective anyway. Some marketers out here might shoot me down. Know, like, trust. You have to know somebody, you got to get to like them, and then you'll trust them. So, in any scenario where you're wanting to influence somebody to do something, you have to build this relationship, which is know, like, trust.

You got to earn that. And that could be in a number of ways for employee for employers or people in general. But, I think we have to stop to listen what the genuine in theory is of those people. We can make a wild assumptions about lots of things, but unless we meet it with curiosity and inquisitiveness, we can then what really is the main challenge. Most the number one challenge is it will take my job.

And I spend a lot of time asking people why they think that and how they come to that conclusion. And it's always all roads lead me to the same thing. I don't actually know why AI does. I don't know what it does. I don't know the potential of it.

So, it's an unknown and what people fear is unknown. So, we have to paint the picture and do very upfront work around the new world. When this new world happens, and actually maybe your place in the new world is so much more compelling and exciting than it is today. You will have more time. So, as I say to HR folk, why do you go into HR?

And normally, it's because there's a relationship. They can influence a relationship. And I'm like, so why don't you have more time to spend on that relationship and to grow the relationship so it is know, like, trust? That's what you want to do. Well, if you got rid of 70% of the stuff that doesn't do that, and you learn how to master AI to do that, it would then give you that 70% of time to be able to do the things that you really enjoy, the things that actually move the needle, which is human connectivity.

When we feel each other's energy, when we understand each other, when we've had time, safety builds, rapport builds, trust builds. And I think there's a famous quote probably by Zig Ziglar or somebody like that that says, "Where trust exists, anything is possible." So, you can have conversations you can have that you otherwise wouldn't if they're closed down because you don't have the relationship. You know, relationships have always Sales is still on the basis that people buy from people. AI's not going to help us get somebody over the line when we want to close the sale.

It may help us to get to a certain point, but what's going to get us there is a human-to-human connection. And behind AI, when AI noises reduce, this is what we've got coming. Soft skills are going to be very, very in demand, and we'll need to start teaching. And if you look at Gen Z and Alpha, they are more socially awkward than other generations. They have more social um inadequacies, and I say that with much love and respect.

Um it's a fact because of the world they've grown up in. We're going to need to have more, and this comes back down to the HR giving the right tools and the right education to be able to sharpen our tools to be better, you know, to be a better version of ourselves. For not just for our work, but in life. You know, it it really rings true what you say because in in any role, you know, whoever I know, for example, I I've been working in sales for a long time, right? And it is about relationships with the customer.

But let's say I'm working on creating a dashboard for the customer. If AI can do it in 10 minutes versus me spending 4 hours on it, then, you know, I can do so much more and actually deliver really great experience for the customers. And I think that is like the the biggest reason why companies, you know, really should adopt, should work on like adopting these tools. >> Absolutely. And then also, we've got so much more data available now, and data can help us with much speedier decisions.

It can help us There's so much noise and saturation now. Knowledge access, I mean, access to knowledge is You don't need to be a subject matter expert in everything now because you've got it at your fingertips. The quality of that we can always debate, but for most part is we've got access to it. We can use that and leverage it to make great decisions, and we can cut through noise, cut through and and get to where we need to get to. Distraction is all around us.

Of course it is, and AI can be a very big distractor. Um but that's where we come back to education, helping people to identify if I can do this smarter, with these tools, and then I can actually spend more time doing this that the the value adds, the move the needle, why wouldn't I want to do that? Why wouldn't I? One of the guy I really wanted to find out. So, uh your PhD uh is going to run until 2030, correct?

Yes. So, what what questions about the AI identity leadership are you hoping to answer through doing this this research? And what you know, what do you think that the answers might be? So, I'll have to kind of backstep a moment of why I'm doing it because I think it's super relevant. In 2021, I I I had a extremely urgent call um from within myself, my own psyche, that I needed to understand more about the esoteric, metaphysical, quantum um parts of the human the human mind.

And and how we correlate with that. I become fascinated and I did my master's in transpersonal psychology and consciousness. And this to me was the most wonderful 3 years because I had to grow and evolve. So, first of all, you don't go through psychology and not be exempt from learning yourself. You have to embody it.

It's a an embodiment. Or it has been for me. And and so with that I kind of understood so much more about the development of the human. I mean, I'm a psychologist cognitively anyway before that, but for me the the the metaphysical part is the unexplained part, the non-tangible part. And and whilst we're going through this pandemic, people are feeling this collective grief.

There is all of these energies that are um they are gelling, they are repelling like magnets. And for me, I become then fixated with science of well, if we are energetic beings, surely all of these energies around us are really repelling or attracting us in in in all sorts of things and in all sorts of ways. So, that was my backdrop. Then I thought as I finished my masters, I now see the AI acceleration, and this was in 2024. Um the AI acceleration for me had already begun.

And I then become fascinated with human spirit and human feelings and thoughts are not evolving at the same time as technology. So, the human is almost like flailing around [snorts] in the world like a paperweight in a in a VUCA environment, and and how do they weather this storm? Because it is a storm. Um and we can either be a victim of it or we can be a master of it, master of ourselves in relation to. So, this is where I become fascinated with leadership.

So, when I talk about leadership, I talk about it as a self first. Me. How do I lead myself? What's my leadership like? How am I leading my life, my thoughts, my feelings?

And as we know, lots of people have traumas in their world, their lived experiences. Some people have beautiful experiences, but all of these lived experiences do make us and shape us, how we think and feel, their identity, our values, our beliefs. So, for me in order to manage this VUCA world, my external to me. How can I do that? I can really only control my inner world.

So, what's happening within me? My thoughts, my feelings, my actions, my reactions, which to me is the only thing I can truly own. I can't own you. I don't want to own you. I I can't I can't influence a lot of what's happening around me.

So, I can choose to be a paper paper that's whimsical in the world, or I can choose to ground myself and be very clear in what I believe in, what I'm about, who I am, and therefore I'm not so turbulent in the world, if you like. So, that's the backdrop. So, then if I think about leadership studies, so thinking about leadership styles, um they're not changed either, right? There's no They haven't changed. Um we're still going to continue to have generations.

We're still going to continue to have triggers and reactions and responses as humans. So, for me, if we cannot manage ourselves, how on earth do we manage as a parent, as a teacher, as a peer, as a boss, in all factors of life? Um so, for me that's that leadership part. Now, let's take the backdrop of AI, the speed it moves at, the opportunities it's given, the fear it's creating, I'm coming back to the how do I stay centered and grounded in everything that's moving, sand beneath my feet. I can only create my own security and stability within me.

I mean, to be employed now is really scary. I don't know if I'll have a job in a year or two. You know, lots of people the gig economy is set to go into the, you know, gazillions of of dollars revenue because it it we see that there's going to be more people than ever having their own journey, owning their own journey, which means having their own business. That's not easy either, mind you, but that's that's a distinction that I I kind of see. So, coming back to your question, um and thank you for allowing me to kind of give some narrative and context, is that what I hope to achieve is to be able to do two things, maybe three, um which is number one, is help people to become self-leaders.

How do I become the path to self-leadership? Number two, how can I translate that into my work world? And how can I start to manage not just me, but those around and not even manage, help, support, guide um from a place of of of rooted groundedness. And then the last part of that is for me is understanding what HR, so knowing what leaders we need to become to weather this future that is unknown. So, however unknown it is, if we're secure in ourselves and we've kind of got the self-mastery of self down to pat, for me then it becomes easier to deal with unknown cuz it doesn't unhinge us because we've already got what we know to be true in our own selves.

Um so the future of work, how do we need to evolve those leaders to deal with the future of work? It's not really HR problem. I think it's a fundamental humanity problem and my my hope is to help humanity evolve through the research that I do and so I can I can share with people this is this is the way forward. This is how you can overcome your problems. And if not me, then who?

So, it's it's I want to marry the worlds of the esoteric, which is the inside world um and I will call that spirituality. Some people might call it consciousness, whatever it might be. How do we become conscious leaders so that we can lead with figure and we can lead from a place of grounded, if we lead from chaos, it's undoubtedly going to create more chaos and we've already got chaos all around us. So, for me that's the outcome of this that I want to be able to say my gift to my profession and my life's work is to kind of say here's some answers, here's some practical ways and it's probably not going to be groundbreaking. It's probably not going to be as groundbreaking as we think in terms of or one might think, I might come up with a new organizational model that takes people, processes, profit, and practice all into one, maybe.

Or maybe that will be a very simple Maybe it will be much more simpler than that, which is simplicity. Keep it stupidly simple. How you take people through change, how you help people be better in their lives, not just their job. Um maybe that's the outcome, but I I see that I want to help people to imagine the new world, and that they are a part of that new world. I I think what you said about the the leaders and the confidence, like definitely when you have um I've interacted with many managers.

And you know, a manager is is a is a leader, and you can definitely see how if someone is is grounded and they feel good about the you know, the position that they're in, not only from work perspective, but also from the perspective of their home life, then their leadership is is stronger, it's better. They are able to, you know, it feels like they are able to support you better. And so, do you think that that is like the that is the biggest difference between being a great leader and being potentially kind of a manager level? That they have that that grounding and they understand themselves really well to be able to to to be in that leadership role and excel in it. Yes.

Somebody gave me a book about 15, 16 years ago called The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz. It's a very, very tiny book, and it talks about four agreements. Number one is be impeccable with your word. Number two is always do my best. Number three is don't make assumptions.

And um the fourth one, which escapes me completely right now, which is um don't take it personally. So, these four rules, if you practice them and overcome them as a manager or a person, when you don't make assumptions and you have a curious mindset and you don't take things personally, it's life-changing. Because when you can step away from something and see that's their experience, that's their suffering or their enjoyment or their whatever it is, when I become not attached to that, I can stay grounded. I can stay completely in myself. I'm not threatened.

I've not got imposter syndrome. I don't have any of that to deal with. So, there's nothing going on within me that now I'm distracted from helping that person do what they want to do cuz I don't have a secondary gain. I don't have insecurities that have arisen because of what other people have said or done or not said or not done. So, it's that art of really knowing what you say, your words have an impact.

Spelling, spell. We can create spells with our words. The stories we tell ourselves are so instrumental to what we believe. Um, and sometimes we don't tell great stories to ourselves. So, we have to be conscious about what we're talking about.

We have to be conscious about others' challenges. We don't know what's going on in their life. So, we can very easily make assumptions about a lot of things. Don't do it. I Somebody often challenges me with this, which is, I want to be treated the way, um, I I want to I'm going to treat those others the way I want to be treated.

I don't believe that. I believe in treat you the way that you want to be treated because you are not me and I am not you. And I don't know what's going on under your bonnet kind of thing. I don't know what's going on inside of you. So, we have to be curious and open and and be expressive.

And that is embodied in what we call the servant leader. Now, that's an approach and so lots of people have "Servant? Oh my gosh, that's a very triggering for a lot of people to just even think about that terminology." But the the embodiment of it is it's it's somebody that is there to unlock, unblock so that their workforce can do the great things that they need to do. There's no ego.

That's the biggest principle, lack of ego in that role. Um and lots of people think that they have to assert their ego to be heard, to be listened. I think the opposite. I think you you show strength when you can listen well, hear well, have curious mindset, ask questions, and allow also people to come to their own assumptions rather than be quick to tell them what they should or shouldn't think or feel. So, servant leadership attributes, whilst the name might be very triggering, I think this is the approach that it's an it's an ask, don't tell principle.

I'm asking you, I'm dialoguing with you, I'm co-creating with you. Um I'm co-initiating with you. And there's a uh for Otto Scharmer is a has a um a well-known it's called theory U and it is about this co-practicing approach or framework, which I love. Um and I think that people feel included and when they feel included, that also goes back to the low light trust. We're going back to the psychological safety here.

So, I I think that we might need to revisit that if we want to be really successful leaders. Um and and sort of put down our egos and think I'm not always right. Um and actually I always think I don't want to be the smartest person in my team or the room. I want to be the I know that I'm very smart, but I don't need to go into room thinking that. I need other people to be smarter than me because I don't know lots of things.

I know lots of things, but there's so much more I don't know. Um and if only we could have that I'm not saying I'm the absolute pinnacle role model cuz I've got my flaws, too. We all have, but if we can just be open-minded that our way is not the highway and that there is so much more potential if we just have a curious inquisitive mindset. Yeah. I think that this um This is very true not only, you know, in a work setting, but also in a personal setting, right?

Where I uh when I first moved in with my partner, it was uh there was a lot of things where I felt like, you know, I don't know, like cutting mushrooms. I know how to do this and I think that my way is the best. >> [laughter] >> Right? Uh but then you you learn and and you're thinking like, oh, the other person is is equally smart as as you are. So, actually thinking and and understanding how from their perspective and learning their way of doing things and actually oh, you know, their way of doing your things actually like is good, makes sense.

Uh but it's really hard, isn't it? It is. And I mean, how many times have you ever eaten spaghetti bolognese? Yeah. And how Does Does it taste the same every single time?

No, never. Never. Unless you go back to the same chef, the same sort of that that's made the the dish. And even then you might get a little variation, right? Cuz I think about I always think about spaghetti bolognese every single time, like, there is everybody's got their own unique way of doing it and it's not wrong and it's not right.

It just is. Yeah. And um actually I I often think of cooking as something that's so wonderful. I try and encourage people to do that together even if it's team building or friends or whatever because we can also This is where the you see the moment where people do it so differently. Um and making a meal together is it it I mean, it can be very triggering for a lot of people, but at the same time, I think you're going to share an experience which you're going to eat together anyway, which is wonderful.

But then you start to cuz you you do see people chop differently, they wash things different at different stage or and that to me is like magical. It's magical. Yeah. It should be a team building exercise for a lot of teams, I think. Yeah.

Yes, it should. But when it comes to feeling overwhelmed, like I myself feel really overwhelmed because there is a new tool that's coming out almost every day. And then I hear news about this company raising hundreds of dollars and and taking over, you know, jobs. And then I feel like I need to keep up and use these tools and know how to use them because otherwise, I'm going to fall behind the the train that's moving so fast that it feels like there's no way to keep up. How How do you stay grounded when you're feeling like this?

>> Yeah, that's a great question. So, I too have a lot of overwhelm and sometimes I can I and you know, we I'll say we, I'm not speaking on behalf of you, but I think that we have interest, we are trying and testing. We, because of our involvement in AI, is fast moving in terms of responding to what's coming up and how do you stay abreast of that? Um I don't try anymore. When I do try, I get very overwhelmed.

Um and then I start to doubt if I'm learning quick enough. Number one, learning fast is a skill. And I think if you can learn to learn fast, that's half the battle. I don't need to spend much time learning something before I've got the gist of it. So, I can very quickly discern if something I'm not interested in or is.

It can help my business or it can't. The second part of that is it's not all on my shoulders. I think you have to have a really good network that you So, I work in different spaces and places with different people that one really likes image creation and languages. That doesn't really help my business right now, but I'm very about it because I think all that's something I should I'd really like to know more about. So, I can tap into them and ask them.

If you wanted this, where would your So, I leverage their expertise and say guide me. Nana banana you know, wherever it might be. Platato for social media. I like Sabrina Ramanoff. Um I I I I There might be somebody that is really Anthropic uh very much a fan of them.

Somebody in Google. So, all my team we have learning We have learning sessions every Saturday. Um and all the team learn. So, we've got English lessons cuz I don't always want people to be English their mother tongue. So, or another I I would encourage them to speak languages.

We also have uh We call it hot picks. So, what's the hottest What's our word on our street that we all bring forward and say we've heard about this like mythos has been one thing this week that we've been talking about. Um so, I'm like all go and do a little bit of experimentation or just one thing. Then all come back and share what you've learned. [snorts] Give us a kind of the 60 second of what the main thing that you thought it was and then 60 seconds somebody gets to kind of quiz with a question and then that you know, then you can all decide is that something that I want to go and get more more more information on.

Um I do have a chief AI officer, which is also Ammon. Um, and and he's in charge of innovation. Um, because like what tools we use in work for our clients is quite changeable. What works for one client wouldn't necessarily work for the other because I might have a very different infrastructure um, to begin with. So, we have to stay on the ball about what's happening.

But, the comfort is we all learn. There's one hiring skill for me. You've got to learn fast. That's it. I can teach you If you can learn fast, you can learn anything fast.

And so and I'm very clear that we will have people managers and we will have individual contributors. Some of those will not be brilliant people managers, but they will be brilliant at their job. So, but everybody that the universal thing is we hire in the learning speed and and and velocity. So, we know that we can learn. And I think this is like such a powerful skill because uh, so recently I started doing uh, 3D printing.

I And we had a um, we bought a 3D printer probably 6 months ago. And it was sitting there for 4 months doing nothing. Um, then I decided oh, we should, you know, we should try to create some gadgets um, using that. And uh, I got like so fascinated with it that, you know, 2 months later I was, you know, I really like I started learning how to do 3D printing and uh, like how to do the design part of it. And YouTube has just so many resources um, that if you want to learn anything, like you can learn it.

Um, but yeah, I think that that is the like when you look at the future the future is the people that are going to sort of win are the people that learn fast and they can iterate. And the answer like, "Oh, I haven't been taught like how to use this tool." You know, well, you can look it up on on YouTube. Most of the things they're not like they're not rocket science. And you've got information to it all.

You can also use AI to learn too. >> Yeah. You know, this there's so much I don't accept now that somebody has to wait for your career to be made for you. You have to go out and make your career for you. The other thing that comes to my mind as you were speaking is you know, in the distortion and the dis and the sort of the distraction that we're in people will be successful if they just choose one thing and go in for one thing.

Not trying to do 10 different things. That doesn't work either because then we're all or nowhere. Um and so when we want to learn a skill, go in on it. Be fascinated. Be obsessed with it.

That's okay. Um and learn and then, you know, fall in love with it or move on to the next thing. But it is that That's what I call play. It's really important that we do play. How on earth do you ever know what you like unless you've experienced it?

Life is a big wonderful adventure and sometimes we're very very very fast or we want to be at a certain destination. I'm like always think about here and now um and and think about play in in a way which is educational and fun. Um I think we can get very serious in life because life can be very serious that we just forget to play. And we can discover so much in that just in the 3D printing. My nephew um there's a a machine at my sister's house and he is so into it.

You know, I got I went round there one day and there's all of these He was making plant pots. Um and all that cuz my his sister is doing floristry. My my mom grandma likes anyway. So we all like plants. So he went into this frenzy.

It was absolutely brilliant and I was like, I wish I So, this is this is my brain. I wish I had time to go and learn that because I know that I'll become obsessed by it, but I don't have time. I don't have a TV, by the way, and I haven't in 15 years because I cannot get distracted. People think about consuming consumption as food and drink. I see it as in my ears and eyes as well.

Like what I'm listening to, who's around me, my environment is particularly needs to be a particular way for me to do my best work. Um So, yeah. I think if I go down that rabbit hole, I'm going to have to start doing something else. And between building a startup, which is becoming extremely successful and in demand, and doing a PhD, that's it. And then I need to see my family and have fun with my mates in between.

Yeah, it It comes back to that thing of, you know, being grounded and thinking where your priorities are. >> And I work hard to do that, by the way. That's not something that's just handed to you on a plate. Um I've had to meditate for 15 years. I'm not saying that you have to do it to get to level of awareness, but there has been a lot of inner work that continues.

Um and and uh finding ways to reflect and create space to introspect. Um and become more self-aware and self-regulated. You can't become self-regulated if you're not self-aware. So, there's a whole self-fulfilling prophecy there. You know, you you said your mission is to help understand human emotion and how it ties into into the leadership and using kind of while you use the the tech and work on on helping companies adopt it.

So, if you could, you know, say what is one message that I have for people that work in in HR or they're in a leadership role right now, um and they're wondering, "Well, is AI going to make me more valuable or is it going to replace me? What would you say? Be uncomfortable. Be uncomfortable and continue to be uncomfortable because through discomfort there's growth. Um, and we all need to grow.

We shrink when we see fear. We shrink when we see challenge. And I'm just like, it's okay. Resistance is a form of also fear. Um, be uncomfortable and get very comfortable being uncomfortable because that means you're growing, you're evolving.

Um, people are going to have an opinion what you do, what you don't do, however you do it in any way. So, if you can just get out get out of your own way. So, I'll give you a classic example. If you want the sun, let's just say that we're both on the street right now and you're saying, "Oh my gosh, I wish it would the sun would come out. Oh my gosh, I really wish for the sun to come out.

" And then the sun comes out and I put up an umbrella. And then I say, "I really want the sun to come out." Yeah, we'll just take the umbrella down. Cuz the sun is always there. There might be clouds, but the sun's always there, right?

And I feel that we do that time and time again because of our own insecurities. So, get to know yourself, get out your comfort zone, be stretched. Just stay in that discomfort because that will grow you faster or as fast as AI in my view. And that's how we become more self-actualized, we become more in touch with ourselves. It's that journey and don't stop.

Well, let's do um, let's do a fast round. I I feel like I could uh, speak to you for hours. So, um, what do you think is the most overhyped AI trend in HR right now? So, Claude is making a lot of I I and I don't know if it's an overinflated I just say at the moment that I AI in general is is is kind of like just it it's all myth and it's all smoke and mirrors. So, for HR it's just like a great facade.

Um, and I I don't think they can really see things clearly because they're not sure who to believe, what to believe. It's just this whole vacuum of smoke and mirrors. Best AI use case that you have seen, uh, inside, uh, a people team that, like, you you didn't expect. So, there is one company who are very advanced in AI, um, that I know of. I'm quite close to the chief people officer.

They've embraced AI for a number of years now, and they have got it at every level to such a great, um, auto They've gone from 700 global HR team to 70. I'm not saying that's a good message, by the way. Um, they've redeployed people, let's say. They didn't It wasn't about shaving head count, it was about redeployment. Um, and what they've managed to do really brilliantly is streamline.

It's not a sexy topic, I'm afraid, but it is one that, uh, for for companies grievances, um, is a massive, you know, it's a risk, it's very expensive. They've really got a great system and framework and workflow. Um, so, you can look at the normal org charts for the people people, and then you look at the charts for all of the agents, and they're completely simulated. So, it's it's very cool. Um, and I look at them and study them and kind of go, "Wow, they've got it right.

They've got it brilliant right. They've got it really, really right." So, they're my kind of like >> I think actually, I mean, Anthropic said that they've got consciousness built in their models now and that's why mythos has become such a a big deal in terms of noise right now. Something might become conscious because one can argue that everything has consciousness, even that table, that water, you know, there are some people that believe that. I do believe that the human emotion is something that that is a is a strong feeling and I'm not sure we can ever get that with AI.

Yeah, I think I would agree with that, but maybe in 5 years, you know. No, it's I talked about AI in 2018. I was doing exactly what we're doing here and I got it out from the archives and I was talking about it with a group of people and and you know, we we loosely talked about AI and how machine it was different from machine learning. And we talked about what it couldn't possibly mimic. 2018, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, we we we didn't think we'd have self-driving cars.

" And Waymo is coming into London, right? I I saw the car the other day. >> Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, honestly, we'll have data centers in space. Yeah.

That that is something that was unimaginable. Now, are we killing our planet? Yes, and that makes me very sad. I can't stop what's happening in AI, but I can sure as hell help people do it safely, consistently, and with, you know, ecology um and that to me is really important. No, brilliant.

Thank you so much for this conversation. Oh, I've had a great time. Thank you so much for inviting me. >> How did you find it? To me, there's no camera.

I'm not worried about the camera. Like, just have a conversation. It's it's not really about the cameras, it's about just being fully present in in here and that is lovely. That's nice. I genuinely feel I feel like I could, you know, spend another hour speaking to you.

Because there's I think your your experience is like so vast and also for me is incredible that you've left in like so many places because it like it's it changes you, right? It does. It does change you. And equally so being on this side is that, you know, I don't learn anything about what you know and that that's the the only frustration is, you know, that I I definitely want to get more involved with what you do and um because I can I learn from different people and I I learn constantly. And you know, when I was talking about the having a a people around you that are your supporters that you support them, they support you.

I think it's really important that you have different people around you and that do challenge your way of thinking. Um as I've got older I've learned not to be so dogmatic but to be very flexible in my thinking and and actually I might go it has to be done that way and then the next question is does it? Maybe it doesn't. Um and that's I think again you got to practice that because I think I know a lot about things and then something will come along and I'll be like oh I don't really know much about that. So I think when you're in different communities and they can bring that to that thinking it's great.

Yeah, I know I'm you know, I'm hoping that uh like the the community that I'm building is is going to be a space where like people can learn and also that they feel comfortable like sharing what they've learned because I think you know, when you create a space in which people are comfortable uh it just is it's such a you can bring out such a big potential from people, you know? >> Trust, same principle. You know, when you're in an environment where you or you can be free of judgement or mockery, that you're accepted, um not everyone is a brilliant presenter or speaker or articulator, um but everyone's got a superpower. Everyone's got a a sign of genius, everybody. Um and we're sometimes very quick to judge people um when it's not to our own liking or but actually, when you're in a a place which is predefined or known that this is a learning zone, this is safe to learn here, it's safe to mess up, it's it's safe.

Um I think it's really great. Think what you're doing is amazing. No, thank you. And that's a wrap. I generally loved this conversation with Zoe, and I learned so much from it.

For everyone listening, [music] if you took one thing from today, go do something with it. Don't be just a consumer. Build. And remember, you don't have to do it alone. The Women in AI community is full of women doing exactly that.

Link is in the show notes, and see you next week.