The Chief AI Officer Who Says AI Is a People Problem | Ep 10. Jena Zangs

My guest today is the first and currently only chief data and AI officer across higher education in Minnesota. She was recently named one of EdTEX magazine's top 25 higher ed leaders to follow in 2026. And in December 2025, the same month that she stepped into her current role. She also founded Women Build the Future, a global platform showcasing women building in AI. and she built it entirely on her own using love ball.

After winning lovables, she built season 2. Jena Zangs, welcome to Women Lead AI. [music] So, welcome to Women Lead AI uh podcast, Jenna. So excited to have you here. So the first question is I want to understand what your day-to-day looks like as um chief data um an AI officer at University of St.

Thomas. And to do that I was doing a bit of prep and I asked Claude, okay, like if you explain it to me like I'm 30 years old. Uh so I'm going to read it out to you. >> Love [laughter] it. >> And I want you to tell me uh if that is accurate or not.

>> Great. >> Okay. So, she's the person in charge of making sure the university actually knows what's going on with its own data >> and increasingly that any AI tools the university uses are safe, trustworthy, and won't blow up in anyone's face. [laughter] >> Oh, I love that. Won't blow up in anyone's face.

Um, that is great. Like it's concocting a um some type of tool or something. Uh, so I'd say that's like a def part right on the fact that I definitely want to know what's going on with your data and >> where it is as that's been my mo. So right before I became chief data and AI officer, I was chief data and analytics officer. So there was a lot of crossover but it was so heavy focused on data and more machine learning.

So um, and none of this with AI now it's not just one person leading it. I feel it has to be the whole team plus the whole university coming together. So when it said to make sure things don't blow up, I think it's more, you know, figuring out where that innovation can happen. And >> each day is different, which is also my favorite part about it. Like some days I get to be super in the weeds, technical, trying out new um coding pieces or building something or learning something about AWS.

But then at the same time, I get to go meet with HR and meet with marketing and talk about how we're going to, you know, communicate across campus and really um evaluate. And the other thing I think that that definition gets wrong is that my role is not about tools but it's about people. uh a lot of people and a lot of change management and >> uh I have a a great talk where I focus on what is an AI ready actually mean and everyone always just jumps to oh we bought quad we bought chat GBT those types of things but I keep pushing like an AI ready individual is someone who >> reshapes work and reooks at things and isn't just like I can use chat GBT it's like how do I look at a problem and figure out where AI can improve and so that's what I think about when I think about my role is to help people feel comfortable with AI, feel comfortable with data because they go hand in hand and keep them moving forward in the pace that works for them, not at the million mile pace that everyone is saying right now. I think that's uh such a good point uh the one you mentioned about uh you know making sure that like what is AI ready because um the company where I previously worked in they uh you know they gave co-pilot licenses to everyone which is um really big investment but then when asked about what's the plan for education to make sure that you know employees actually know how to use these tools uh it was mostly be silent. So, um it's such a good point where sometimes even investment is made, but then how do you do that change management piece?

>> Yeah. >> And how do you look at that? Um especially considering the fact with how quickly those AI tools change, you know, one day everyone is talking about ChatGPT and then it moves to cloud and then it moves to something else. It feels like you can't keep up with the tools. >> Yes.

Absolutely. And the word grounded is what I have constantly been communicating and coming back to is that we're just we are grounded in our business purpose and our mission and our values. And that I feel like allows a person to find the floor or the weight instead of feeling like they are all over with all of that pressure going on. And um so being able to center them I think is a big big role in that as well. Mhm.

>> Mhm. >> And you know, something that I was I was thinking about is the fact that you're the only person in higher ed in Minnesota which has that title. Uh so of course I went to Claude and asked what's the reason for it? And they said um you know because usually those roles are separate the AI piece and the data piece. Mhm.

>> Why do you think it's important that it's brought together and do you think other institutions will follow that path that um your university took? >> Yes. So the reason I think they go together is because uh I have this theory that chief data officers or anyone in the data field we've already seen this hype cycle of AI. We are we have tried to push governance. We have tried to have clear definitions.

We have given people dashboards and tell them figure it out with any without any training right and so like the same things that people are feeling right now we have already experienced >> and so for the last decade my um teams and I have been already going through so the fact that AI is now rolling in we've learned so much so we are able to not only meet and have the data foundations with the governance pieces there but we're able to then apply and embed AI rather than just like putting AI right on top of something and saying go. Um, so a lot of universities, actually there's a a stat from inside higher ed last year that said 30% of higher ed universities uh work out of spreadsheets still. So when you think of trying to do any type of work like running your business, you're 30% of these schools are out of spreadsheets. So I think that more are following suit and I've seen tracks of uh chief data officers continuing to move and now I'm seeing AI officers but I'm also seeing them embedded in like the academic side right so that we're teaching and upskilling the next workforce um but I really think that schools will continue to um have these together because again the experience that the cos bring that data mindset to the table is addressing all of the pain points that people are experiencing right because >> I guess you can't do the AI piece that well if the data piece is not there. >> Yes.

>> Because uh if you're working with the data that's that's not correct or it's not governed right, then the AI piece doesn't work >> right or it it creates more biases because you're missing some of the information. And a lot of companies I say right now are the last year has been exploration mode for many. And so they've put their infrastructure with popsicle sticks and tape is how I look at that. And now when they're being asked to scale these huge AI products outward and make real impact the popsicle sticks are like breaking. So now the data and the infrastructure and how things are connected is what uh can really leverage.

But that's only the back end, you know, backend side. But it >> none of that would be successful without the people using it. To your very first point around like people adopting and actually trying these things that we're putting out there. >> And how do you do that change management piece >> considering uh the fact that those AI tools are coming in, they're different. So to me it feels like the doing AI education means continuous education.

Yeah, >> because unless you do that then you know someone knows how to have meeting meeting notes from the recording but you know they there's so many more tools that they could use right like they could have let's say all of those meeting notes and they could question they could ask questions about those. Uh so how do you do that piece where it's it has to be continuous? >> Mhm. Well luckily with education we value learning for life. So I when we're in meetings and we get kind of stuck, I I'll remind people of that that we are in education because we love to learn.

So I have a little bit of a benefit with that. Other uh industries maybe do not. Um but it's just showcasing the ability to level up together. So again, unity having grounded. Some of these key words that I use over and over in a lot of my discussions or communications, I think give individuals a place to hold on to so again they don't feel that they're all over.

And if AI only comes out of a tech space, then it's going to look like a tech product, people will have resistance and they'll just say it's just another tool. But when it comes together with more of a working group in including, you know, HR, as they have such an invested uh interest in this to upskill the entire company or organization you're with. And I don't very rarely hear them at the table or ask questions or what their thought because everyone just assumes it's technology. Um the same with internal communications or marketing or I think of from a school standpoint. We want to make sure that our faculty find identity in this new AI space because it's being questioned constantly that AI knows more than this professor.

So it's it's meeting people where they are and then continuing to elevate together is a big I don't have you had some um messaging that you've been using as you've been talking about AI very constantly. Anything like that? Yeah, I think I think it has to be almost embedded into the culture the culture of either the company or wherever you are >> that the the AI piece we have to >> get on board the fact that it is there and how we can utilize it to the best of our abilities. Um but the aspect of bringing people on board is very difficult >> because a lot of people as soon as they hear um a new AI tool is coming [laughter] and it's going to um simplify things they think like oh it's not going to simplify my job. And the second thing that they're thinking about is I'm if it is actually going to work well then I'm going to be out of the job.

>> Yes. So, [laughter] how do you how do you work with that that fear and a bit of feeling like people are going to be replaced? What do you think about that? >> So, I my first thought is that everyone is replaceable no matter what position you're in. I I I really do think that you have to get out of that mindset um and set yourself into that growth, right?

Like you said, everyone wants to keep learning. If you're fearful, then you may not >> be open to learning. So you have to know that like that could happen to any of us at any period in time. And so um it's your job then to showcase here's what I could operationalize efficiency and now here's where I'm bringing new value to the company. If you just sit there and operationalize your own things then yes you know what what value are you bringing to the company?

If you don't showcase the new value that's where that upskilling really comes from. And I think where people need to embrace that more, especially our women who are maybe nervous about I no one's told me I could do this or not or this permission thing. And I love to see when people just go after it and be like here here's what I did. Here's the value you're now getting and here's the more responsibility I would like. If you keep asking for more responsibility, your team is not going to get rid of you.

I mean, right? if you just sit there and wait to be told, those are the people that will have a harder time trying to justify um their their value at that company. And everyone does have their value. It's just you you have to keep pushing yourself to learn and bring that value um to your company. Mhm.

And when it comes to that data piece, um I was I was looking at uh I think it was a a presentation that you were doing to students either students or it was a company and uh you asked the question how many um how much unstructured data in a company there is and the answer was 80%. Yes, >> which is such a big number because it means that almost like it's so much of that data that any company or organization has is unstructured. >> So then how do how do companies utilize that unstructured data? Because it seems like if you were to use that it would unlock so much, right? Mhm.

>> But then there is a piece of like do we want all of that unstructured data to be utilized? >> Uh because it means potentially looking through um employees emails that they send to another to another employee and that governance then comes in. >> Yes. >> How do you think about that? >> Yes.

So I call that the for students specifically I call it around human safety, right? Because everything AI that we're introducing, the accountability comes back to me and the responsibility. And what I'm finding is many love to say they, you know, they want to own or do things with AI, but they don't want that harsh accountability that can come with those negative effects, >> especially with um understanding what data you should and shouldn't use. And so that's why our governance is around the human- centered design and making sure that >> the data that we utilize or even collect is something that has a business purpose. And I I'm um I just it always comes back to the foundation of what your business purpose is and the value.

And I think that's what's getting a little lost in a lot of the media right now too. But >> um so making sure that you are transparent all the time. If you are going to be using emails, then you better be, you know, pwning up and telling your company that you're doing that and telling your employees because that's where that trust build comes into play. And if you aren't doing that, a lot of them are going to back away. they're going to not want AI anymore.

So, I think it's it's again leveling up together to say here's why we're using your emails be, you know, to um help you create faster replies or figure out which ones are actually important or not and those types of things and just talking through what they are. And if you I call it the ick factor. If you can't tell someone to their face what you're doing with their data, like you make this like so I'm doing this and you feel weird about it, then that is an instant like you should not be doing that, right? And so it's different telling someone to their face what you're doing with their information versus like behind the scenes. >> So that's like a nice gut check I like to share with people too.

>> It is is a really good way because there I mean there are so many things where if you were to ask yourself do I feel comfortable saying that and the answer is I don't know maybe then you know it is a really good guide for for people. What about what are you focused on right now? Because in an institution like a university, you can think about uh the data and AI piece from the perspective of okay, how do we improve processes within university on boarding all of that [gasps] there can be piece of how do we make sure that the students uh that come into university they're prepared to go into a workforce where AI is almost everywhere. >> Yeah. And it feels to me like those are in some ways se separate tasks.

Are you working on both of them at the same time or what what kind of priorities do you have now? >> Yes. So the number one priority is for uh students to have be an a to create the next AI workforce and really evolve them. And again it gets back to my definition around it's not that every student can use ChatGPT. It's that they look at a problem and they can rework the problem in the most efficient way and AI just becomes a piece that strengthens the human capability.

So that is as a university it's always ours to uh champion their future into the way that they want and serve their whole person. So I really like that about um AI and that is a piece of my work right now along with the back end of the infrastructure and making sure all the pieces work. Um but a lot of universities right now are looking at accessibility too meaning that everyone has equality to reach and learn these new capabilities and because in right now in the US K through 12 is not embracing AI the same way or at the same pace there's a huge gap. So someone graduates high school, comes to higher ed and they are they are trying to figure out all of these pieces around um what that means so that I can get a job, right? And it's not just about getting a job, it's about growing as a human, but there's this gap that higher ed is filling and then they go out to these companies.

Now, my other flip side that doesn't get talked about is companies are hiring either interns or first, you know, fresh out of um school and they're saying we're AI ready, but then that student gets there and they a don't have any tools, they don't have any data and they're like we'll figure it out and get some AI in here and then they feel really stuck and a lot of more pressure. The company looks at it well like you can't deliver and then there's this disconnect where I feel that companies need to set what they mean by being AI ready too. Uh and honestly these interns that I am seeing that are going out into companies are building companies in 24 hours with vibe coding or they are figuring out problems and automating them and if they just were given more of a voice at the table I think that's the strategic asset people aren't utilizing right now. >> Yeah. But I think the problem with that is that in a company especially like a large organization you have a lot of layers >> and my personal opinion is if If there is a core belief from the CEO themselves that are we need to be AI ready and it means X Y and Zed in our organization and they really push for that then it's very hard for an intern who sees you know all of these opportunities to improve processes to do it from the bottom up.

>> Um do do you see that as well or >> Yes. And I think uh as that's like a hurdle I feel like we learn when we go right into your first few positions too is like >> how do I make change respectfully upward right it's something you just got to go through to learn but this is a different phase where I mean the students coming in have it's like their playground they have free tools because they get them free as students right they have no responsibility so they can just build what they want all the time so they are really coming in with these ideas and are going to have to the next managers up are going to have to be open and realize that if they just let some of that in that they all would level up together. I mean accept like there's only opportunity and I think that's where the resistance is. It's the way we've always done things. Nope, you can't do it that because of this, right?

It's not being as open. And I myself have even had to really push what I had beliefs of and continue to expand with the new capabilities coming out right now, too. >> I don't know if that's something you've seen like you've had to >> push yourself. um in in getting out of your own way of like, "No, this is just how I've always done it. Let me think about it differently.

" >> Every day. >> Every day. [laughter] Every day. >> Um you know, it's funny because the other day I was speaking to my dad and he recently got into 3D printing. I don't know if you >> 3D printing.

Yes. >> And you know, he used Claude to um create this model. And I didn't even know that Claude was able to do that. like a clock color code uh create an actual file that you can then print and you know my gut feeling is oh maybe it's it's not that good or I don't know about it but then you kind of look at yourself and you think I mean this is amazing I can do my own designs and I think it's that constant push and pull between okay this is how I always done things and this is what I can do now with the tools >> um that I have. >> Yes.

>> But it is it is so challenging I think. >> Yeah. And do you does do you find like sometimes you get fearful or like I don't know just like in your own nervous like do you how do you deal when that comes to decide like this is the right path or sticking with what you do. >> I think I think similarly to you, I've always been the person that is like okay let's just give it a go. And I think if you have that attitude uh you know that whatever you do it might not succeed >> but you learn through the process right >> and I think having that having that mindset of it's the journey that is it's the the journey is kind of the destination in a way.

>> Yeah. >> Um I think that has been really helpful for me. Um but you know it's it's a learning process I think. >> Um >> and when it comes to the students as well uh at the university I think you know I remember when I graduated in 2020 so it was um the was just starting. >> Yep.

>> So it was it was a really nervous time. All of the jobs um that were advertised they were basically they stopped hiring. Mhm. >> And it feels like in a way now is the similar time as well where I mean I see it where a lot of the jobs that you would give to an intern I mean you don't need it because you can just get an answer from cloth so quickly >> right >> so how how did you [laughter] having spoken to students how do they feel about that and what do you think they need to be doing in order to to be prepared to enter that workforce. >> Yep.

So, they're feeling the pressure unlike ever before because every media outlet saying you won't have jobs, you won't succeed. Like, why is educ why are you paying all this money for education? I mean, that is that isn't new for education, but right now it is heightened. And I even just >> uh looked this morning and I love that a few articles are now starting to come out that, you know, we we need more humans than ever. We need human um in the loop still.

So like this idea of just so I think it will swing back a little bit but what has been working for our university is that we have very close ties with um with all of the Fortune 500 companies or just real world experience. That's what's going to get you into the door professors to be able to come to your interviews and when they are talking about problems you've solved you have real examples and where it brought that business value. So we have a lot of internships or having connections um understanding that those first few that they're in are very basic and that they're learning things and but when they're doing that in college while learning those uh classes I feel like that is what's giving them the leg up when they go to apply for their first official position or they're just hired as an intern. Um, and I'm not seeing any shortage of interns requested, right? Because they understand they're learning, but they do realize that there's a lot of AI tools, especially in mid to smaller companies that they don't have the capacity to just spend time doing that because they're trying to generate their revenue.

So, they bring in these students, they get the great, you know, it's a win-win and then the student has this nice portfolio. But the schools that are coming in and just teaching prompting and not actually applying it in a business sense is where I'm seeing lower hiring rates because they're they're not coming to these interviews with those clear examples and it's just I did this for a project which sounds very different than I did this with this company and this is what happened. um as well. >> Do you find that you're making maybe not you personally but uh you're thinking about what changes to the curriculum you can do in order to get those students uh ready for those AI tools because I mean if I think even about the uh the way that you evaluate a lot of the tests and quizzes that I've done you know looking at where AI is right now they it doesn't feel like they they match up >> right >> so how do you think about that >> yes so our provos started an initiative uh last year called reimagining the major where every single major is reviewed at the undergraduate level to see where AI can embed or strengthen again that major's knowledge and their capability as they go out to the workforce so I love this because you think our school has oh yes we have engineering we have nursing which have huge huge uh changes with AI, but then I think of like art history, right? Somewhere that how do you use AI in there?

And when you think of a lot of this art that might be partially completed or very dull and you can barely see with the human eye, you're able to use AI now to better understand maybe what this picture would have looked like. What does this writing mean? the the things that we can learn that now are revitalizing something that seems like a very traditional maybe non um flashy I guess you say type of major and so that's where this this technology can really scale industries in ways we haven't seen yet which I think is really fun so that on the curriculum side and then just getting everyone to this AI ready definition um because for universities like you said I can't use just one tool I can't be like yeah we have Microsoft let's just use copilot and everyone's good because when they go out there they have to understand the variety of options. So we have to be really dynamic which only increases our risk right of thinking what data could go in all of them. So it I'm not going to say I have it solved yet but we are trying to be as dynamic as possible um and really focusing on where the industry is using those tool like which ones are the most popular rather than everything that's coming out.

Um but for like art history, they may find someone might make an app that or a model that is better for art history and then we adapt that way. But the faculty have so much opportunity and um empowerment to go out there and figure out what is changing in the industry and how to adapt that which is what they're amazing at too. >> Yeah. And do you do you find that some people say, "Oh, I'm not I'm not technical, so this is a this is not a like these tools are not for me." >> Yes.

>> And I'm asking this as well because you're um St. Thomas is a liberal arts university. >> You know, when you think about MIT, it's very much technology focused. So do you see people saying oh you know we are when it comes to you know our history feeling like introducing AI into it doesn't doesn't feel right. It's um it doesn't feel like we we need to do it.

>> What are the thoughts on what are your thoughts on that? Um, yes. So, for those who may be more nervous about it, I do think about where it could lead for art history specifically, if if we're just talking about that, where that can lead that whole industry, right? It can evolve them upward. And for those who say that they're not techy, I mean, you probably hear that all the time, too.

Every time that I see someone trying something, they're like, "Well, I'm not a tech person." And I'm always like, "Well, you're using it. You definitely are." like and then I um it gets to that imposttor syndrome which is what we're all feeling too and I know we as women talk about that a lot but the question that I keep asking when someone tells me that is who are you waiting for to tell you you're a techie or not techie what does that even mean anymore like whose permission it's you're only waiting for your own permission to say I can do this like and believe in yourself >> um so I think if individuals continue to say okay I tried this this is great this is step one you don't have to be that you have to be out there creating agent an entire agent orchestration everything you know all of that you don't need to be at that level if you can just start and do a little bit better every day and show consistency that's where I think that imposttor syndrome goes away because you believe in yourself and there there truly I don't think is a line of techie and non- techy right now it's it's very fun I never thought I would see that but I I love it >> and do you think because of that there's more opportunity for individuals to become uh entrepreneurs >> because you you like a value coding. I like it as well >> and to me it feels so empowering to have an idea and get that idea to become reality.

Um, and this is something I' I've never imagined like even let's say let's say building my own website, you know, it's is incredible that you can do that in a in a in one day, right? >> So, I I think that there is so much opportunity, but at the same time, it's really hard when you come out of university to have that mindset and actually succeed at it as well. uh considering only 1% of startups actually make it. So when you hear that statistic um it makes things um yeah it makes people nervous, right? >> Yes.

And I think it's been that way so far because this technology hasn't been there and I think about all the women voices who have who have had like you said had this idea for 5 10 years being like only if I had this and they could go make this in a day and bring it to their own community. Right. Right? It doesn't have to be a full startup, but even that type of empowerment for ideas that we have been missing in a variety of communities that may not have had voices or the ability to make it that far to even think about a startup. Um, so I'd like to think that while there hasn't always been, you know, only 1% makes it, I'd like to think more in this future will have a variety of options to choose from instead.

Um so anyway but for students they're making them anyway and pitching them out there and >> as a organization we are getting inundated with we have this new feature to help students like every day I get three or four vendors reaching out to me so I know those are sometimes students building things they have these ideas so I love that we're in this space of so many ideas um but that is where I'm coaching organizations and universities to filter out what is something that can actually scale what's something that's just a pilot. What's something that um you might want to adopt overall for your university? >> Yeah, it's so interesting because uh I was speaking to someone who is the founder of their own company and they said well because everyone can of a vibe code anything these days it means that the only thing that for example investors look at is the distribution aspect of it. >> [clears throat] >> So, how much marketing capacity you have to be able to put that thing that you created in front of people, >> right? >> Which makes sense.

Um, but it's also kind of um a risk because it feels like the competition is even bigger >> for sure. >> So, >> and the noise is louder and the pressure is there more to like try and sell. And you know, when you think of $20 a month if you're on some your own individual plan, like even $5 a month now seems like a lot for some subscriptions and things like that, like when you're now you have something to compare that I can get all this for $20 or this, you know, for five depending on your your strategy for distribution. But um but I I agree with that. I think that it is really hard to uh get yourself out there and why I'm thinking that in the next couple years we'll see a lot more community solutions because it's more cost effective.

It everyone has their own culture. Um we actually have a city uh right now in Minnesota that I just spoke with her last week and they are trying this just for their city because they are finding that uh AI literacy is low and that they are losing money in fraud in scams for for a variety of ages. And so they're trying it just for a community, building solutions, which um if you think about each city doing that and keeping costs, you know, within their budget, then we can have better solutions that meet people where they are rather than something that maybe doesn't meet everyone's need and isn't as accessible across an entire state. >> And when it comes to vibe coding, again, something that you built is uh women build AI. Yeah.

>> Um yeah, it's um will the women building the future. women building the future. >> So, you have a full-time job. So, [laughter] >> which I imagine keeps you more than busy. What's the reason that you felt like I have to build this?

Uh what was what's the market gap that you saw? >> Yep. So, um that's the idea that has been in my head for like five plus years. And after doing she builds season 2, we built an education app uh with my uh teammate and she um that was like her her vision that she had seen as a teacher. And so that was really fun to build with her.

And then after she built I I just kept thinking about how I was seeing all these panels with AI and they were typically all men and I'm like where [snorts] are the lad where are the women? I know there are so many smart women out there and I wanted to get them. I wanted more visibility for them. So I created this so that individuals can showcase if they're a speaker or not and get them on stage what they can speak about that there's technical I I mean I've been meeting people from Walmart from Google from AWS all architects and they don't have to be super technical but I just don't I want to see diverse >> viewpoints on stage and not the same thing being said by everybody. And so now I've gotten so bold that when I do see the same the same type of people on the marketing emails coming to me or or wherever I will reach out to the organization and ask like do you need a different voice on this panel or this topic and then some of them say yes and then I go and I find one from my pool or I find one from our um women in AI group and bring them together that way.

Um just because I think this can't be decided by the same type of voice over and over. Yeah. And [sighs] I mean I see the exact same thing, right? And even let's say I put in in um YouTube search bar like clot coag tutorial, right? Yeah.

>> And all of the faces I see are men and you know that [clears throat] that's absolutely fine. I there's absolutely no reason that I can't uh be >> Oh yeah. >> You know, I can't learn from from it. Um but it does beg a question of why is that you know >> why it feels like almost 50% of population is not visible when it comes to that topic >> what do you think is is the reason it's a very broad question but adoption of AI among women is 25% lower why >> I think trust is the first thing that comes to my mind is that uh there are more studies coming out people trust uh it was only 30% of and they surveyed both men and women um trusted the data behind like what that you were going to use their data responsibly and their information and so I think as women we are >> not necessarily as trusting into where our information goes we ask more questions and then I don't know if we're always given the opportunity to use it with so many stay-at-home mothers as well I my sister is a clear example um she has three beautiful children and I asked her like hey have you done meal planning with AI and she's like, "Oh, what do you mean?" So then we took a picture of the fridge.

I said, "Here's what you can ask it to do," which is like one of my favorite examples. And I'm like, "It's things like this." And so I I think if you're not invited in, you don't necessarily like raise your hand to be in. So I think that's two layers, trust and just being invited um to do those types of things. >> Yeah.

And I guess what you build helps helps with that, which is uh >> I think, you know, it's it's amazing tool. Um, and I really hope you know, uh, I was recently at London Tech Week. Um, and you you can see that it's improving. Uh, you can see that there are more women on the panels. >> But I just I just wish that that acceleration path goes goes quicker and it's basically a topic that we don't have to discuss because the the adoption is the same and women are hopefully leading in it.

Yes. >> Selfishly. um that you know that's my personal wish. >> Yes. And don't you feel like have you ever sat in a panel and I again I mean this so respectfully because to be even asked to be on a panel you have to have a certain expertise in this but I feel like sometimes sitting there I'm like I could say exactly what you're saying or like there isn't anything different or the fact that um uh us and as women will sit there and be like well I'm not good enough to be on that stage like I don't know enough but in reality you're like I could have said literally what you said like I I just think it's again that imposttor syndrome of getting to say yes I know just as much and that even though my voice might be different it's a good thing to be different on stage you don't want to say the same thing everyone is saying >> and do you think it's important for organization to for your organizations to know that that is happening >> and then put some kind of governance in place to make sure that [clears throat] >> you know women are invited on that stage >> um and how how do you approach it as well at the university?

Oh yes. I have never thought about that question before around your own organization when you're doing those pieces. I know what the the and maybe you get this too. It's it's like I don't I just don't know any women to ask like and then it comes down to just knowing someone even in that space where I'm like well you got LinkedIn you could easily do a search and like ask people in the neighborhood, right? Or the area.

>> Um but that would be a great piece is to say we want you know different viewpoints and voices um as much. But that's typically what I hear is like we just don't know any women to ask which >> well they have a tool they have your tool so there's no excuse now. [laughter] >> Yes. Exactly. Exactly.

>> So when you think about the future what you know how do you think your role is going to change in the next year or two? And what are some of the milestones that you're hoping that you hit? >> Mhm. Um and also I guess new challenges that that's going to bring. >> Yes.

Uh I hope um that in the next year or two that we really are working more collaboratively as one not that we're not working collaboratively but like that we have the same goals and mission around AI to um keep delivering actual value. I know that's where companies are falling short right now is the value isn't there but we're spending all this money and I hope we get to that point where the investments we're making in the people in the infrastructure and the actual uh tool sets are going to see those benefits. I really do think they are. It's just going to take us some time and my role specifically will be less like this is what we should be doing and it's a collective of us group talking through oh yeah HR knows this is what should be happening and then marketing knows this should be happening and finance knows this it's less me driving and more of us group driving together so I think that's what will happen across more organizations it's not just own just because I'm the chief AI officer piece does not mean I own every single piece of AI like it's more orchestrating where we're going and the rest of the groups continue to evolve with that path. >> And how do you think student experience is going to change?

Because if I was to do masters in about two to five years, then I would love, you know, to have basically a chatbot where I just get a link and it knows all of the information about the major that I chose and ask it. I can ask it any questions like, okay, I'm arriving into halls. Where should I park? And who's going to be my tutor? What internship should I be focusing on?

and all of those things. >> Yeah. >> And not just that, but also ensuring that my education I'm ready for >> Mhm. >> for the next step and for that workforce. >> Yes.

How do you think how do you think about that? >> So, I would love if every like when you I don't you send out a letter with when someone is accepted, but it'd be great if right on there was like here's your personal assistant for the rest of your time, right? And they are with you all the time. So, just like what you're saying, they are um dedicated to you and I envision it being your own agent essentially, right? That then can do tasks for you, not your homework all the time.

Even though I know students are doing that now and I love them for it because >> that's what you do is you try and figure out how to be better. That's that's the goal of education. So, um so as you're going through, but I can see things like, "Oh, I'm having a really hard time or I'm looking for a new friend." And another agent can be saying, "I'm looking for a new friend." and it just creates this new web of being able to connect human and technology together.

I think that's one um area for the student experience. And then I actually I again this is not something the university is looking at but I just see as a whole for education that in the next 5 to 10 years I wonder what a bachelor's degree what a master's degree actually is. Like couldn't we just be stacking different levels of credentials that way instead of saying you take this many classes and you have a bachelor? Like I just feel like depending on your industry, we could get more custom on what your your expertise needs to be to get you where you are because I I just think keep thinking of how can we reduce costs for education to make it more accessible. Um, and I think this is where we could really evolve in that way while still allowing the option for someone to come to to campus and have a great time and do those things.

But, um, I just I think the role of education will could evolve unlike it has before. >> Yeah. And I think if I was that student, you know, thinking about do I do I do masters, let's say, >> and facing that choice. Now what I would be my fear would be the fact that you know I'm supposed to do that one year degree but [laughter] you know Claude has come up with agent in in the you know in two weeks time and then they're coming up with another thing and another thing. >> Yeah.

>> And I found that the most of AI education that I I kind of get is from YouTube, right? Just because of how fast you can you can get to it, >> right? But this the school books they're not designed for that because by the time you print a book it's I mean two years have gone past and then it's not very relevant at that point. >> So [laughter] how do you think also the the the curriculum and the pace of it has to change. Oh, these are great questions and for faculty they love they are probably the originators of governance like honestly because they have a lot of things they discuss forums all of that.

So th that's what will have to evolve is that the guardrails that have been in place for the last oh 20 50 100 years around governance for faculty will have to break down to be more nimble and there are faculty who want to do that and I think it's just getting out of this traditional education like we have to review it has to work for all this it has one fits all can move to a we can meet you where you need us and where you're learning the same with like different disabilities in learning too, right? We are excluding that from specific higher ed uh environments because we don't have the tools, but now we do. So, >> I I think it will just be what you want out of this experience is what you're going to get more the >> Yeah. >> than being told this is what the experience you're going to have. >> And I think personally that is also a huge opportunity, right?

Like there are always risks and thinks and this. But, you know, if I look into 5 years into the future, being able to almost have a teacher that I can I can probably talk to who is going to deliver education only to me uh and I can ask any question that I would never ask in front of the class. Mhm. >> I mean, it means that that you actually learn so quickly >> and it's personalized to you and you feel like you can get the support that you need, >> right? >> Uh so I think that's exciting, right?

>> Yes. Yes. And I mean the the AI companions have come out from Google from Zoom even has one now that you can have like your own assistant as you're learning because classes happen on Zoom Canvas. So things that schools had talked about are the companies are coming out with those features. So maybe that's another good uh segue of vibe coding.

When all these new ideas come out, it just feeds the feature for the feature development faster for these larger corporations that already might have the infrastructure to deliver. Not great for the startups, but it could deliver the features you've been waiting for that no one listened to because you kind of built it and created some disruption. M and so when you think when you first came into the role and the things that you focused on what do you think has made the biggest difference um when I think about the the peers that you might have you don't have any right now [laughter] who hold the exact title but I'm sure that there will be >> yes >> what do you think what advice would you almost give them or something that has worked uh for for you in the organization that you are in. >> Uh if it was their day one, I probably would say that don't let the pressure get to you because I mean it is immense from every level of the organization and everyone wants an answer, right? What can I use?

What can I do? What are we paying for? What are we >> It's going to come every direction and you have to be the calm in the storm. That is your role is to come in and say, "Let's figure this out together. You don't have to solve everything.

" Um, but I think it's being able to guide people to the thing that works best for the business. Again, it gets back to that. So, I would just tell them, don't let the pressure get to you. Get something outside of work that you can relieve the pressure and everything that's coming that way. For me, it's um working out and and things like that.

But, um, but that would be the first one. And that you don't have to have every answer. I think that could be for everyone in AI. You don't it's okay to say I don't know. Um, and I think as a leader, it's so authentic and refreshing to say that in a meeting because it gives everyone else permission to say they don't know and not like feel like I'm so far behind and I have no idea what's going on.

And clearly I I know where we're going on things, but you don't have to have every answer at that moment. And it's just I'm not always seeing that with other leaders that they feel like because they're in this role, they have to have every answer right when they start. Yeah, that I think that's a great advice. And you know, we talked about AI readiness. How how do organizations figure that out?

>> Yeah. Uh yeah, I it's based on your culture. If you know your values and your culture, if your value is shipping fast, even if it's only 80% of the way there, great. That's your value and that's what your mentality. if it's we need for K through 12 education we have you know young like my daughter seven-year-old second grade trying to figure out where AI fits into that and there's discussions around that and maybe it's just a very light tier but it's again that custom experience of meeting people where they're at over I >> so I think just making sure that we're we're open to that is where we'll go.

Yeah, >> that's awesome. I I really enjoyed this conversation and uh I think I I took so much from it, especially the >> being grounded piece because, you know, when you see the the news every day, it even if you are the kind of person that tries all of the different tools, it still feels like you're always uh missing something. It's you're not you're not where you feel like you should be. >> Yes. [laughter] So I think that's going to be my my takeaway from this conversation.

>> Great. >> Um I would love to do a fast round. So I'll ask you some questions if that's okay. >> Y >> So uh what's a AI use case that has genuinely surprised you recently? >> Yes.

So the one with the fridge and my sister was great to watch her reaction because she's like, "Oh my gosh." Because we both try not to waste food. So that's one scenario that I like that's more human. And then a second one is I was uh presenting at a human uh it's a human safety conference but not necessarily AI human safety. It was just like firefighters and police officers and they had never used AI this whole room of people.

And so um we were just doing some simple prompting. I was just sharing you know ways to get started because I wanted to help the community uh continue to upskill. And the chief firefighter was like, he came over and he's like, I have been having someone do the research on all of the the new changes for the regulations for literally weeks to summarize and be able to tell us. And he did it in three prompts in like in the meeting. And to see it was like Disney World on his face.

He was just like, >> "This is amazing." Right? And so seeing areas that you wouldn't think that would use technology using it, I think that's what's most fun and surprising for me because I there's no way I have domain knowledge in firefighting, right? in any way, but um just to see people be able to try and excel at it, it was was surprised me. >> That's awesome.

Um what do you think is the biggest misconcept misconception that people have about what a chief data and AI officer actually does on daily basis >> that we own every piece of AI at the organization. We are accountable for sure when if an entire database gets deleted if this agent goes it will come to us but ultimately AI is owned by the everyone at the organization just like data it's not by the chief data officer actually owns very little and then the owners are spread out so I think the same with AI >> that's awesome >> and what do you think is uh a thing that higher ed gets wrong most uh most often when it comes to AI but AI. >> So, um I think that we are learning the balance between crit not critical thinking, um we're learning the balance between making sure someone has the foundational knowledge they need and being able to use AI. So this whole area around stopping cheating is very interesting to me because I've seen professors go back to blue books and I've seen professors totally embrace and say you can use AI just tell me what prompts you are. So, I think us getting on the same page around where where how do we determine what that foundational knowledge is and I I mean the other quick stat we didn't talk about too is that high schoolers have 20% more homework in the last decade than they did before with the same amount of time, right?

Plus sports, plus all the other stuff they're doing. Um, so I think if education could think about AI is not in the cheating realm, but how, like you said, how do I get ready for that workforce instead of going back to the way it was is where we could continue to improve. >> Yeah, I think that's a great one, especially the changing that mindset from using AI is cheating to using AI because I can get, you know, better answers, I can be more efficient. Yeah, >> I think that's a crucial one to focus on. >> But thank you so much for this.

I really enjoyed it. >> Yeah, me too. >> Thank you so much, Jenna, for this conversation. Go check out Women Build the Future. And if this episode was useful to you, share it with someone else who needs to hear it.

This has been Women Need AI. The smartest room in AI has women in it. See you next time.